26 replies to this topic

[Red squirrel]

This is one point that bothers me since closed beta.
Especially with the current XP system, that requires you to have 3 mechs of a chssis to go veteran/elite.

Some mech chassis are just 100% useless/redundant.

e.g.
Jenner-7K (4 instead of 3 modules when mastered)
Quickdraw-4G (wow 2 additional jump jets instead of a missile HP)
most Stalker variants


What do you think?

[superteds]

potato.

[Red squirrel]

Thank you very much for your reply.

[Homeless Bill]

RVN-4X - Needs a larger engine cap.
RVN-2X - Needs a larger engine cap.

SDR-5V - Needs something. Maybe it should have hardpoints relocated to the arms or something. Two extra jumpjets are useless compared to the ECM and extra (and better) hardpoint of the 5D.
SDR-5K - Needs something. Because machine guns suck.

JR7-K - Needs a little love. The extra module slot is close to worth it, but not quite.

CDA-3C - Needs something. Because machine guns suck. Really, I don't know how salvageable any light chassis with primarily ballistics slots is.

BJ-1DC - Needs some love. The hardpoint combination isn't worth sacrificing speed and jumpjets. Giving this variant the best twist and whatnot might make it useful.

HBK-4J - Needs some love. There's really no incentive to use this over the 4SP, particularly because the Trebuchet outshines it as an LRM harasser.

DRG-1N - Needs some love. I can't imagine buying this if I didn't need it to elite the others.
DRG-FANG - Needs some love. It's just a 1C that trades an energy hardpoint for a ballistic one. Pass.

QKD-4G - Needs a little love. Maybe an extra module slot would make the difference.

AWS-PB - I wish it would get some love. The hardpoints on that thing are pretty awful, and any mobility buffs it got were offset by the increased slowdown time (which is a pretty major pain in the ***). It's not worthless, but it's a hell of a lot less desirable than every other Hero 'mech.

STK-3H - Needs a little love. The extra tubes on the arm don't quite justify its existence in my mind.
STK-4N - Needs some love. This variant appears inferior in every way.

AS7-K - Needs some love. Even with improved AMS, sacrificing build diversity is usually not worth it. It could probably use an extra module slot.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 01 July 2013 - 01:17 AM.

[WolvesX]

ALL UNAWESOMES!

[Red squirrel]

@HOmelessBill
I very much agree with your list.


Spider: It would be fine if the ECM would go with the V variant.
But currently it is a mess with no ECM, less HPs, and the restriction of CT HPs.

SDR-5K & CDA-3C: These can be saved by an MG buff. going up to 1DPS they are at least not completely useless anymore.
And given the great sound of the MG I finally use these again.

HBK-4J: IMHO This variant has no role in the game and could just be removed. The TBT is superior in every way.


Stalker: It is a mystry to me what the devs thought when they chose the Stalker hard points. There is so little diversity and 6 variants.


I just wish we get a Hero Jenner soon, because I refuse to buy a K.

[Graewulf]

It doesn't bother me that I need to research 3 different variants of the same chassis. What bothers me is that I HAVE to have all 3 variants in my mech bays to do ANY research at all. That's just absurd. I should be able to buy and play 1 variant and let all the experience accrue on it until I have enough to max it out completely (even though I can only USE enough at that time to fill all the basics). Then I should be able to sell it, buy another variant and do the same thing. Then, when I have the variant I actually want to 'Elite' and keep, I should be able to go into my pilot tree and spend the research I have accrued on those previous variants and 'veteran' them, thus opening up the 'elite' on my keeper variant. The way it is now is ridiculous and seems like a cheap ploy to make us spend money on mech bays.

[Gaan Cathal]

Red squirrel, on 30 June 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Quickdraw-4G (wow 2 additional jump jets instead of a missile HP)

The -4G also has improved twist. Don't recall if it's arm or torso, it's in the relevant patch notes somewhere.

[Thimble]

Graewulf, on 30 June 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

It doesn't bother me that I need to research 3 different variants of the same chassis. What bothers me is that I HAVE to have all 3 variants in my mech bays to do ANY research at all. That's just absurd. I should be able to buy and play 1 variant and let all the experience accrue on it until I have enough to max it out completely (even though I can only USE enough at that time to fill all the basics). Then I should be able to sell it, buy another variant and do the same thing. Then, when I have the variant I actually want to 'Elite' and keep, I should be able to go into my pilot tree and spend the research I have accrued on those previous variants and 'veteran' them, thus opening up the 'elite' on my keeper variant. The way it is now is ridiculous and seems like a cheap ploy to make us spend money on mech bays.

It is a blatant ploy for money... and it does feel cheap.

[Homeless Bill]

Thimble, on 30 June 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

It is a blatant ploy for money... and it does feel cheap.

Extremely cheap - free, in fact. It's called free-to-play. The business model is primarily based off of increasing the grind and allowing people to avoid it by paying. Don't want the grind? Fork over some cash or give your cash to a game that doesn't involve a grind.

It's a legitimate business model, and people really need to stop bitching about it. I don't care if people want to only need one variant. PGI owes you nothing; it's providing you a free service, and you can be satisfied, pay to avoid the parts you don't like, or take your business elsewhere.

That said, I won't go so far as to say I agree with their pricing structure.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 30 June 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[AnnoyingCat]

think about the extra cool shot you can equip

[Graewulf]

Homeless Bill, on 30 June 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Extremely cheap - free, in fact. It's called free-to-play. The business model is primarily based off of increasing the grind and allowing people to avoid it by paying. Don't want the grind? Fork over some cash or give your cash to a game that doesn't involve a grind.

It's a legitimate business model, and people really need to stop bitching about it. I don't care if people want to only need one variant. PGI owes you nothing; it's providing you a free service, and you can be satisfied, pay to avoid the parts you don't like, or take your business elsewhere.

That said, I won't go so far as to say I agree with their pricing structure.

This attitude is precisely why game companies use these shady tactics. People can ***** and moan all they want, but many will still just eat that crap sandwich they're served and ask for more. Sure, it's a free to play game, but there are many and there are even some out there that let you do exactly what I was asking for. I don't think it's unreasonable to see it here either.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Red squirrel, on 30 June 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

This is one point that bothers me since closed beta.
Especially with the current XP system, that requires you to have 3 mechs of a chssis to go veteran/elite.

Some mech chassis are just 100% useless/redundant.

e.g.
Jenner-7K (4 instead of 3 modules when mastered)
Quickdraw-4G (wow 2 additional jump jets instead of a missile HP)
most Stalker variants


What do you think?

I agree to be honest and what is worse is you can't just buy one, then bank enough XP to unlock everything, then sell it to start over on another variant. You pretty much have to buy all three and sit on them until you get basic unlocked for all of them, then and only then you can use your banked XP to unlock all the elite and master skills.

Then like you said, the Chassis are redundant often. For example the load out on my Stalker is going to be the exact same loadout as the other 2 Stalkers I am going to buy. Great I have to spend something like 25 million on what end up basically being the same mech. What I would rather do is just keep the Stalker I have, be able to Master and then move on to another mech.

Homeless Bill, on 30 June 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Extremely cheap - free, in fact. It's called free-to-play. The business model is primarily based off of increasing the grind and allowing people to avoid it by paying. Don't want the grind? Fork over some cash or give your cash to a game that doesn't involve a grind.

It's a legitimate business model, and people really need to stop bitching about it. I don't care if people want to only need one variant. PGI owes you nothing; it's providing you a free service, and you can be satisfied, pay to avoid the parts you don't like, or take your business elsewhere.

That said, I won't go so far as to say I agree with their pricing structure.

Just because a game is free-to-play doesn't mean it is a good thing for the game to have grinds like this. In fact if the grind gets too annoying it can easily end up driving paying players away.

Personally I think the solution is some sort of alternate advancement system that allows you to bypass buying 3 seperate chassis to unlock Elite and Master. Maybe something like a box you can check off that only applies 1/3 of your XP earned toward Elite/Master skills. That way you still have the same grind lenght but your aren't forced to play a chassis you don't like.

[Arcturious]

Most chassis are pretty well balanced if you just migrate your builds around to compensate. The JR7-K makes a good 2x LL mech. Setting it completely apart from the other two as that extra module slot can go towards a consumable you normally couldn't fit.

Now that AMS has been buffed, the 2x AMS on the AS7-K is pretty useful.

There are a few that could do with some tweaks but only very minor ones. The majority if you get creative you can find a build that works and leverages a quirk, or just fills a gap in the lineup. They need to have these different hardpoint / quirk options for the pilots who might be looking for a very specific play style or loadout. What looks on paper to be bad can usually fill a niche. As there are so many "decent" mechs to run there is no reason why the others have to conform when they can be used to push people out of their comfort zone and get creative in the mech bay.

[Deathlike]

Homeless Bill, on 30 June 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

RVN-4X - Needs a larger engine cap.
RVN-2X - Needs a larger engine cap.

Although, at this point I dunno if the 4X ultimately benefits from this.

Quote

SDR-5V - Needs something. Maybe it should have hardpoints relocated to the arms or something. Two extra jumpjets are useless compared to the ECM and extra (and better) hardpoint of the 5D.
SDR-5K - Needs something. Because machine guns suck.

The stock mech design of the 5V doesn't lend to that... but add just one energy hardpoint in the right arm and you'll have something there. It won't be a 5D w/o the ECM, but it's close enough.

The best you can do for the 5K is keep complaining about the MG. For me, it's reducing and/or removing the COF.

Quote

JR7-K - Needs a little love. The extra module slot is close to worth it, but not quite.

I think it's fine for the most part... but maybe a small quirk should be enough.

Quote

CDA-3C - Needs something. Because machine guns suck. Really, I don't know how salvageable any light chassis with primarily ballistics slots is.

I don't even know where to begin on this. Improving MGs is still #1 on the solutions... maybe add another module slot and/or add a nice quirk of some sort... it's just hard to fix this disaster outside of adding another hardpoint (which is not a real solution unless you want another 2 PPC Cicada).

Quote

BJ-1DC - Needs some love. The hardpoint combination isn't worth sacrificing speed and jumpjets. Giving this variant the best twist and whatnot might make it useful.

It's unappealing, so that solution sounds about right. I think it really needs an engine bump for all non BJ-1X variants...

Quote

HBK-4J - Needs some love. There's really no incentive to use this over the 4SP, particularly because the Trebuchet outshines it as an LRM harasser.

Does it really? Isn't it kinda enough to get it one more energy hardpoint over the 4SP though?

Quote

DRG-1N - Needs some love. I can't imagine buying this if I didn't need it to elite the others.
DRG-FANG - Needs some love. It's just a 1C that trades an energy hardpoint for a ballistic one. Pass.

The 1N seems OK on paper... you get to use more streaks or SRMs (well, SRM4s) in the CT... although I'm not sure how bad the convergence is from the energy side of the mech...

The Fang is technically better than the 5N/1N, but then again if you're paying, the Flame is already better.

Quote

QKD-4G - Needs a little love. Maybe an extra module slot would make the difference.

The super arm speed is actually nice. It's a non-issue IMO.

Quote

AWS-PB - I wish it would get some love. The hardpoints on that thing are pretty awful, and any mobility buffs it got were offset by the increased slowdown time (which is a pretty major pain in the ***). It's not worthless, but it's a hell of a lot less desirable than every other Hero 'mech.

Go figure. I'd rather they rework the Awesome hitboxes first and foremost.

Quote

STK-3H - Needs a little love. The extra tubes on the arm don't quite justify its existence in my mind.
STK-5N - Needs some love. This variant appears inferior in every way.
AS7-K - Needs some love. Even with improved AMS, sacrificing build diversity is usually not worth it. It could probably use an extra module slot.

Well, the 3H is the best LRM boat Stalker, so I don't entirely agree with that assessment... (at worst, you can make it another 4 PPC boat...)

I'm pretty sure you mean the 4N (not 5N). The 4N is a disaster... and the 5M is pretty solid if you make it use Streaks and/or Lasers... The 4N probably could benefit from having the same quirk that the 3F gets, unless you can find a way to add a hardpoint that doesn't make it OP somehow.

An extra module slot can't hurt the Atlas-K... but I think it needs some sort of quirk (maybe it's could more agile than the average Atlas), but primarily there needs to be a primarily new missile weapon for it to benefit from (Thunderbolt missiles or MRMs).

Edited by Deathlike, 30 June 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[Red squirrel]

Graewulf, on 30 June 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

This attitude is precisely why game companies use these shady tactics. People can ***** and moan all they want, but many will still just eat that crap sandwich they're served and ask for more. Sure, it's a free to play game, but there are many and there are even some out there that let you do exactly what I was asking for. I don't think it's unreasonable to see it here either.

But I think it is a decent request that a company that asks you to buy three different types of their product at least offers three different types.

Arcturious, on 30 June 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Most chassis are pretty well balanced if you just migrate your builds around to compensate. The JR7-K makes a good 2x LL mech. Setting it completely apart from the other two as that extra module slot can go towards a consumable you normally couldn't fit.

The problem is that a 2LL JR7-K is in no way superior to a 2LL JR7-D or F
4 instead of 3 module slots is currently not a real asset.

I just hope we get the JR7-K Jenner Samuli soon.

Edited by Red squirrel, 01 July 2013 - 03:31 AM.

[PanzerMagier]

I still think we should be using Pilot exp to upgrade mechs with mech variant specific benefits. Like certain awesome variants can fire energy weapons at reduced heat.

Stuff like that. It would buff underused and underpowered variants and also act as a nerf to overused mechs.

[Mr 144]

Deathlike, on 30 June 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

An extra module slot can't hurt the Atlas-K... but I think it needs some sort of quirk (maybe it's could more agile than the average Atlas), but primarily there needs to be a primarily new missile weapon for it to benefit from (Thunderbolt missiles or MRMs).

^This. I have some good builds for the -K...but without the ability to adapt the variant to changing metas due to restrictive hardpoints, I just can't bring myself to buy one. I really want the dual AMS now that it's actually moderatly useful against streaks and SRMs. A respectable single hardpoint missile option would definately make it an addition to my hanger, and I've said the same many times before.

Edited by Mr 144, 01 July 2013 - 03:52 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

I think its the system,most 'competitive' players are going to max them and then stick with the same build of one mech of that type, which ever they think suits them best.

Other players will use the mech that the latest 'weapons balance' allows them to fit the most flavour of the month to them, 6 ppc stalkers, 70lrm+A+tag highlanders etc..


Only really the other ravens and spiders cry out for changes


Most other complaints about variants stem from, people wanting a certain build and not wanting to compromise, so don't use it, or loby to make it better, and make the game even harder to balance.

when the correct way would be to penalise the more optimum builds rather than add to the lesser types

[stjobe]

Homeless Bill, on 30 June 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

RVN-4X - Needs a larger engine cap.
RVN-2X - Needs a larger engine cap.

On the contrary, it's the 3L that needs a lowered engine cap.

Homeless Bill, on 30 June 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

SDR-5V - Needs something. Maybe it should have hardpoints relocated to the arms or something. Two extra jumpjets are useless compared to the ECM and extra (and better) hardpoint of the 5D.
SDR-5K - Needs something. Because machine guns suck.

The 5K just needs a MG buff. The 5V needs... Well. It sure needs something. Extra module slots, re-arrangement of hardpoints, something.

If it wasn't for the fact that the MGs are so useless, the 5V would be worse than the 5K. If MGs ever get buffed to not have a cone of fire, or get their damage buffed again, the 5V will take the crown as the worst variant in the game away from the 5K.