37 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

I'd like to see ALL ballistics re-designed to burst-fire.

I.e. let them do their damage in a short (1-second) burst of 3-5 projectiles, and then have their cooldown (shortened by 1 second, perhaps).

The PPC could then be a shorter burst, perhaps 0.5 seconds and two projectiles, and the Gauss Rifle could be 0.75 burst of three projectiles.

Like this:
AC20: 4 rounds of 5 damage in 1 second, 3 second cooldown.
AC10: 4 rounds of 2.5 damage in 1 second, 1.5 second cooldown.
AC5: 5 rounds of 1 damage in 1 second, 0.5 second cooldown.
AC2: 4 rounds of 0.5 damage in 0.5 second, 0.5 second cooldown.
MG: 4 rounds of 0.25 damage in 0.5 seconds, 0.5 second cooldown.
LB10X: 10 pellets as now, same cooldown as now
Gauss Rifle: 3 rounds of 5 damage in 0.75 seconds, 3 second cooldown.
PPC: 2 rounds of 5 damage in 0.5 seconds, 3 second cooldown.

That would effectively remove pin-point damage from the game without resorting to cones of fire or reintroduction of convergence (both of which could also be introduced, of course, if one wanted to).

[Unbound Inferno]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 01 July 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

So what is the differnce between your suggestd PPC and a Large Pulse Laser (beside the fact that a PPC has a longer range, lower heat, knockback, and ECM jamming).

I don't think the problems with the PPC are going to be solved by displacing another weapon system.

Kinda unable to do that when it already does that. Its better than the LPL in every regard already, and without its supposed "heat cost" for firing it there is virtually no downside to it at all, and add a boost with the ERPPC version. As it stands now there is absolutely no reason to mount the LPL instead of the PPC right now.

They claim they have something in the works to benefit the pulse laser line, but until we see what that supposed benefit is there is no telling if there ever will be a way that the pulse lasers can replace the PPC in the medium to short ranges.

This is more about bringing into line than it is changing where it stands as it is. All I'm hoping for is the pulse laser fix they got actually doing something good for it.

[PEEFsmash]

This is a good idea, and would increase the skill-level of PPCs.

[Ph30nix]

you would just see people piloting mechs with the most ballistic hard points then. The weapons aren't the problem its the fact EVERYONE and their mama can bring an assault/heavy mech into match every single time.

Get a balanced range of mechs in each match and you wont see alot of the problems you do now.

Also beams need a slight buff even with good damage they have alot of draw backs over all the direct damage weapons.

[Unbound Inferno]

Lostdragon, on 01 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

My concern is making PPCs a beam weapon might indirectly hurt lights. Right now light pilots can make PPC users miss, especially if they are very close or very far away. Adding a duration virtually ensures a hit every time. When you are talking about 10 damage deliverd over .25s even a quick swipe across a running light is going to deal damage to multiple components and that is far worse for the light than a complete miss.

So while adding a beam duration would make torso twisting a bit more viable defense it would help heavier mechs disproportionately compared to lighter mechs that can avoid some PPC fire now. It would also make PPCs more effective in the hands of those who cannot aim well. After Streaks lasers are probably the easiest thing for people to use to deal with lights because they can do some damage just by raking the beams across a light. As skill level goes up you see more people able to hit fast movers with projectile weapons and I think that is a hallmark of a good player.

I feel the problem of PPCs delivering too much pinpoint damage can be dealt without changing the mechanics of the weapon itself.

Monky, on 01 July 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

With the current gameplay this would basically make PPC a long range pulse laser done right, I think it would be pretty overpowered with only a minimal effect on alpha boat gameplay. 0.25 seconds w/instant damage is enough to wipe out a light's legs with 10 damage per shot, way easy.

Not true. It would drastically help lights - the pace their legs move in most cases would actually mean they would receive substantially less damage. Legging a mech with PPC would be as hard as it is with lasers, taking time and focus more towards the torso where it hinges.

The more I think of this, the more it would help brawlers and scouts actually do their assumed jobs and take the damage well enough to keep competitive.


What is the current duration of the the PPC's 'beam' in-game now anyway? It can't be too far off from 0.25 - 0.5 seconds.

PEEFsmash, on 01 July 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

This is a good idea, and would increase the skill-level of PPCs.

For some reason, I never would have thought you'd agree with this.

Ph30nix, on 01 July 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

you would just see people piloting mechs with the most ballistic hard points then. The weapons aren't the problem its the fact EVERYONE and their mama can bring an assault/heavy mech into match every single time.

Get a balanced range of mechs in each match and you wont see alot of the problems you do now.

Also beams need a slight buff even with good damage they have alot of draw backs over all the direct damage weapons.

And that would be bad? The sniping range weapons are low damage per hit, the medium ranged AC-10 is widely treated as crap and can't be boated like PPCs due to physical size.

I would assume this as a balancing factor would be a good thing then.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 01 July 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[Roland]

stjobe, on 01 July 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

I'd like to see ALL ballistics re-designed to burst-fire

So... you want lasers to just be better than all other weapons.

[Unbound Inferno]

Roland, on 01 July 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

So... you want lasers to just be better than all other weapons.

Thought he had his own thread.

Realistically he's arguing a valid point as the AC lines are rotary lines firing multiple rounds in short bursts as per cannon info - much like how the old MG was intended to be in BT TT styles.

[Roland]

Unbound Inferno, on 01 July 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Thought he had his own thread.

Realistically he's arguing a valid point as the AC lines are rotary lines firing multiple rounds in short bursts as per cannon info - much like how the old MG was intended to be in BT TT styles.

That's just in the fluff material.

In the actual game, the benefit of large weapons vs. small weapons is that they do all of their damage to a single location. It's the advantage of a weapon like the AC20 over 4 medium lasers. It's generally the ONLY advantage of the AC20 over 4 medium lasers.

If all weapons became burn time weapons like lasers in MWO, then lasers instantly become the best weapons in the game, since they are hitscan and are thus much easier to hit with.

You can't have non-hitscan weapons competing with hitscan weapons, if they don't have some other advantage.

[Unbound Inferno]

Roland, on 01 July 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

That's just in the fluff material.

In the actual game, the benefit of large weapons vs. small weapons is that they do all of their damage to a single location. It's the advantage of a weapon like the AC20 over 4 medium lasers. It's generally the ONLY advantage of the AC20 over 4 medium lasers.

If all weapons became burn time weapons like lasers in MWO, then lasers instantly become the best weapons in the game, since they are hitscan and are thus much easier to hit with.

You can't have non-hitscan weapons competing with hitscan weapons, if they don't have some other advantage.

Answered you in his thread as its starting to get off-topic;http://mwomercs.com/...ay/page__st__20


However my answer also applies here for this one as well oddly enough:


But that's the point he's trying to make now for this. He isn't specifying how fast that "burst" fires, just that it IS a burst.

That and its the whole point.

We suffer from a chronic case of pinpoint accuracy in a system where we make virtual headshots on the CT and kill a mech too fast.

In BT the numbers are balanced so you don't kill a 200(400 now) armor mech in 32(now64) damage on the CT. You are intended to deal nearly 3x that, about 100 points of damage to the mech before crippling it. Tripling armor to even entertain that thought is out of the question - I would not suggest that's even a possible idea with how ammo expenditures work.

Mechanically speaking, we need to reduce the damage dealt on troublesome weapons or find a way to spread the damage out to make it function.

The FPS crowd is scared to death of a random cone or any variable from this paradise accuracy, so we need an alternative - and to be frankly honest I don't mind the idea of making the weapons some form of duration over time to spread damage out just slightly better.

In this mechanic of the game it works as an answer IMO.

[Lostdragon]

Unbound Inferno, on 01 July 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Not true. It would drastically help lights - the pace their legs move in most cases would actually mean they would receive substantially less damage. Legging a mech with PPC would be as hard as it is with lasers, taking time and focus more towards the torso where it hinges.

The more I think of this, the more it would help brawlers and scouts actually do their assumed jobs and take the damage well enough to keep competitive.

Imagine you are in a light vs. a STK with 5 PPCs using this new mechanic. Let's say he fires and would have missed under the old mechanic but he is able to drag the beam across your mech for half the duration. That is 20 points of damage you have taken that you would have avoided before. Maybe it is spread across 3 locations, but it still hurts. Accuracy with lasers is typically very high because it counts even if you swipe the target for a small fraction of the duration. Accuracy with PPCs would go up similarly but the damage output would be much greater due to both a short duration beam and high damage value. I see people miss all the time with PPCs now but that would change if they had even a short beam duration, I am afraid you would see people consistently deliver at least some damage with every shot.

I think if you are going to go with a beam format to deliver 10 damage if you make the beam duration significantly less than the LPL and LL as you are proposing you are going to make those weapons obsolete.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

stjobe, on 01 July 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

I'd like to see ALL ballistics re-designed to burst-fire.

I.e. let them do their damage in a short (1-second) burst of 3-5 projectiles, and then have their cooldown (shortened by 1 second, perhaps).

The PPC could then be a shorter burst, perhaps 0.5 seconds and two projectiles, and the Gauss Rifle could be 0.75 burst of three projectiles.

Like this:
AC20: 4 rounds of 5 damage in 1 second, 3 second cooldown.
AC10: 4 rounds of 2.5 damage in 1 second, 1.5 second cooldown.
AC5: 5 rounds of 1 damage in 1 second, 0.5 second cooldown.
AC2: 4 rounds of 0.5 damage in 0.5 second, 0.5 second cooldown.
MG: 4 rounds of 0.25 damage in 0.5 seconds, 0.5 second cooldown.
LB10X: 10 pellets as now, same cooldown as now
Gauss Rifle: 3 rounds of 5 damage in 0.75 seconds, 3 second cooldown.
PPC: 2 rounds of 5 damage in 0.5 seconds, 3 second cooldown.

That would effectively remove pin-point damage from the game without resorting to cones of fire or reintroduction of convergence (both of which could also be introduced, of course, if one wanted to).

I'd like to see this tried, and I wouldn't mind if we keep seeing a single large projectile like we currently have for certain mechs, maybe two mediums the 4G and the YLW, and the four Atlas either.

At any rate, I hope we'll hear something from the devs relating to convergence, since that and how arm toggle currently works still need to be improved too.

[Unbound Inferno]

Lostdragon, on 01 July 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Imagine you are in a light vs. a STK with 5 PPCs using this new mechanic. Let's say he fires and would have missed under the old mechanic but he is able to drag the beam across your mech for half the duration. That is 20 points of damage you have taken that you would have avoided before. Maybe it is spread across 3 locations, but it still hurts. Accuracy with lasers is typically very high because it counts even if you swipe the target for a small fraction of the duration. Accuracy with PPCs would go up similarly but the damage output would be much greater due to both a short duration beam and high damage value. I see people miss all the time with PPCs now but that would change if they had even a short beam duration, I am afraid you would see people consistently deliver at least some damage with every shot.

I think if you are going to go with a beam format to deliver 10 damage if you make the beam duration significantly less than the LPL and LL as you are proposing you are going to make those weapons obsolete.

Uh, they are already obsolete? ERLL isn't used nearly as much as the PPC. I don't see many LPL over ERPPC, so I don't see how this changes the current dynamic, but rather makes it more manageable.

For your explanation let's take a look. You are talking a 5x PPC stalker against a light running in close quarters under 90m, right? PPC deal less damage. A sweeping beam attempting to hit would be on a fraction of that partial damage. It is a very far cry from 20 points, most likely 10, 15 max - and spread out between multiple parts for the 5x PPC shot.

So you took damage instead of having it miss completely - maybe.

But look at it this way. If we keep the current PPC 'projectile' its not nearly as efficient as the sweeping lasers in those close quarters matches. Its a moving projected range that would only hit your fast moving mech a fraction of the moment. It wouldn't be nearly as effective as a proper laser as you can't adjust its direction after firing. Good piloting would save your butt every time so long as you aren't predictable.

That is the balancing act and the catch.

It does allow the PPC to make damage when it could have missed, but it also means that lucky shot that should have cored you was only 5-7 points then transferred to another part or missed. To me, I think that's a fair trade.

[General Taskeen]

Here is what the PPC did in MW4, it was basically a very fast beam:

Particle Projection Cannon (PPC): The PPC fires a shimmering blue bolt of energy that travels slower than lasers. This "man-made lightning" fires out to long range and inflicts considerable damage to your target. An added bonus is that this weapon adds heat to your opponent and it can temporarily "fry" your enemies targeting systems so that their heads up display shows static for several seconds.




A beam, that transfers a bit of heat, and messes with your display. Hmm, that sounds more unique than what we have now.

Edited by General Taskeen, 01 July 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Here's an idea. PPC heat was dropped to make them more attractive pre-HSR. Lets turn that heat back up now that you can actually HIT things with them now, and see where the meta goes from there.

[Unbound Inferno]

Ranek Blackstone, on 01 July 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Here's an idea. PPC heat was dropped to make them more attractive pre-HSR. Lets turn that heat back up now that you can actually HIT things with them now, and see where the meta goes from there.

We've been calling for that for a while now. Doesn't seem PGI wants to undo it, but instead is trying some mock-up heat penalty that isn't in yet and I hope they never do.

But I and many other completley agree - returning PPC heat back where it should be would be a tremendous step in the right direction.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Making PPCs a beam renders them just a different form of laser. Pulse weapons already fill the niche of very-short-duration-beam lasers. PPCs need different behavior to keep the weapon systems differentiated. Sure lasers are hit-scan and PPCs aren't, but a large part of what makes lasers in MWO unique is the burn time (and burn time is what sets Pulse and standard lasers apart).

Splash damage is always buggy and PGI seems to have constant trouble with it really messing things up when they try to make it meaningful. I'd rather find an alternative mechanic.

For instance, giving PPCs an arc effect where they do 5 damage on-hit, 3 damage on first jump, and 2 damage on final jump (from adjacent location to adjacent location, so there'd be predictability with the jumps) would give them a unique damage behavior, maintain their front-loaded precision damage to a certain extent, while also removing the one-shot-kill potential of truly absurd PPC boats (and make cERPPCs a non-issue when they finally arrive).

It'd be thematically appropriate (man-made lightning and all that), while keeping them distinct from lasers (a beam that you can guide), missiles (lots of scattered hits), ballistics (one lump-sum hit), and all the other weapon sub-categories.

http://mwomercs.com/...-arcing-effect/

[Lostdragon]

Unbound Inferno, on 01 July 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Uh, they are already obsolete? ERLL isn't used nearly as much as the PPC. I don't see many LPL over ERPPC, so I don't see how this changes the current dynamic, but rather makes it more manageable.

For your explanation let's take a look. You are talking a 5x PPC stalker against a light running in close quarters under 90m, right? PPC deal less damage. A sweeping beam attempting to hit would be on a fraction of that partial damage. It is a very far cry from 20 points, most likely 10, 15 max - and spread out between multiple parts for the 5x PPC shot.

So you took damage instead of having it miss completely - maybe.

But look at it this way. If we keep the current PPC 'projectile' its not nearly as efficient as the sweeping lasers in those close quarters matches. Its a moving projected range that would only hit your fast moving mech a fraction of the moment. It wouldn't be nearly as effective as a proper laser as you can't adjust its direction after firing. Good piloting would save your butt every time so long as you aren't predictable.

That is the balancing act and the catch.

It does allow the PPC to make damage when it could have missed, but it also means that lucky shot that should have cored you was only 5-7 points then transferred to another part or missed. To me, I think that's a fair trade.

My main point is that if the duration is .25 seconds or something very low like that then even a quick sweep is going to deal significant damage, especially with multiple PPCs. Maybe it's a wash as you say, but I have a hard time believing it would be. Regardless, I don't think the devs are going to do something radical like that with PPCs, I would imagine they will tune via heat and other stats that don't require recoding the weapon this late in the game.

[Goldhawk]

Unbound Inferno, on 01 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

So, I think I've had this idea once before - don't know why I disregarded it - but Karl Streiger reminded me of it.

Turn the PPC into a very short and limited duration 'beam' damage, much like other lasers.

The idea I think came about how it has the beam look in this game, yet its a completely front-loaded weapon. It is one of the defining factors that makes it infinetly better than Large Lasers or any other Pulse Laser option for those with good aim as it meshes perfectly well with this game's pinpoint accuracy.

So, in an effort to try and mitigate the damage, why not alter it into a short-duration beam?

I'm not talking change the animation, or completely remove the effects, just alter the damage so its spread over that short 0.5 or 0.25 sec duration the visual beam lasts. The result would be exactly as we see in Pulse and other Lasers. The damage hits, and as the target inevitably moves the damage spreads. The shorter than normal duration of the beam makes it still stand out at the peak of the energy class, but it would help drastically to reduce the damage received.

So, what do you all think?

Noooooooo.

Otherwise, we might have something like this....


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