9 replies to this topic

[Seelenlos]

I read today in the match: I NEED WINS FOR ELO, then the hole team gone CAP!

Is that that f..... easy to get playing with the good ones?

Then
ELO SUCKS ! ELO SUCKS ! ELO SUCKS!

Specially the teams i am with.... most of you know my winning in the game, but come on, that bad i can not be alone!

The simple mathematics of tonnage and Mech-role would do 1000 times better game balancing than 3 ddc Atlases against 4 lights ....

I am not done but hey, we all now it won't change a dime But now i feel much better

regards.

P.S.: still nice game
Thx

[Wintersdark]

Ummm, ok?

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Are you saying you'd sooner see Elo scrapped and just tonnage matching? You understand that there's weight class matching right now, right? So for every light on your team, there's a light on the opposing team, etc, unless it's taking too long to find a match of equally skilled pilots.

So, if you had 3 DDC atlases, and faced 4 lights? Those 4 lights had at least 3 other assaults somewhere. Likewise, you had 4 lights stashed somewhere too.

Or are you saying something else? I'm not sure if English is not your first language or what, but that post was very hard to understand.

[Seelenlos]

Wintersdark, on 30 June 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Are you saying you'd sooner see Elo scrapped and just tonnage matching? You understand that there's weight class matching right now, right? So for every light on your team, there's a light on the opposing team, etc, unless it's taking too long to find a match of equally skilled pilots.
So, if you had 3 DDC atlases, and faced 4 lights? Those 4 lights had at least 3 other assaults somewhere. Likewise, you had 4 lights stashed somewhere too.

Hi,

yes. ELO Systems tend to also be vulnerable to some kind of grinding. If the by was right, that your ELO will get better only by CAP-Wins where you stay alive and on someway you become better players around you, then the system is not worth a coin. hen it would be better to take fortune or only a tonnage system.

It would mean: if i am a good player and with my actions the team wins, but in the course i die, then my ELO is less worth than a worst f... because some smart guy with cap will always get the smarter players around him, only by cap-wins. The logic of this is derived from a non logical mathematical equation developed by some programmer = Non logical in real world terms.

Though this might be intended, it is not my favorite method. let me make an equation may be familiar to you if you played WoW:

You killed the Big Ghoul in the dark woods and it drops a standard blue item. You kill a wolf and it drops a violet long staff !!! You understand me? a Wolf, a loooon staff and magical !?!!?! Elite Monster: heavy damage little blue knife ....

In MWO terms:
I win a match 750 t vs 950 t = my ELO rank is standard soldier
I run with 1000 t vs 500 t i do no damage and cap = my ELO rank is Elite warrior rank deadly from gods special army ordered to earth ! BAM

Yeah i like that kind of mathematics ....

And as long as there is no way to see your ranking the whole thing is a mystery in the "cloud"

regards

[Wintersdark]

Seelenlos, on 01 July 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Hi,

yes. ELO Systems tend to also be vulnerable to some kind of grinding. If the by was right, that your ELO will get better only by CAP-Wins where you stay alive and on someway you become better players around you, then the system is not worth a coin. hen it would be better to take fortune or only a tonnage system.

It would mean: if i am a good player and with my actions the team wins, but in the course i die, then my ELO is less worth than a worst f... because some smart guy with cap will always get the smarter players around him, only by cap-wins. The logic of this is derived from a non logical mathematical equation developed by some programmer = Non logical in real world terms.

Though this might be intended, it is not my favorite method. let me make an equation may be familiar to you if you played WoW:

You killed the Big Ghoul in the dark woods and it drops a standard blue item. You kill a wolf and it drops a violet long staff !!! You understand me? a Wolf, a loooon staff and magical !?!!?! Elite Monster: heavy damage little blue knife ....

In MWO terms:
I win a match 750 t vs 950 t = my ELO rank is standard soldier
I run with 1000 t vs 500 t i do no damage and cap = my ELO rank is Elite warrior rank deadly from gods special army ordered to earth ! BAM

Yeah i like that kind of mathematics ....

And as long as there is no way to see your ranking the whole thing is a mystery in the "cloud"

regards

It's not a way to exploit your Elo rating. Elo ensures you play with others at roughly your skill level, under normal circumstances.

Skill level in this case means directly: Your ability to help your team win. If you do so by cap wins, so be it. What matters is that your team is winning directly due to your actions. That's the whole point of Elo, and in that case it's working as designed.

Keep in mind, Elo changes are slow as well. Getting a couple easy cap wins doesn't significantly impact your Elo rating. You need to consistently win more than you lose for it to grow.

It's possible to use that to push yourself into a higher Elo range than you would be at otherwise. This isn't a failure of the system either, however, because (and this is a very important point people gloss over): Elo is not a rating of how awesome you are. It is NOT a score, or a ladder ranking. It's an internal tool to match people of relatively equal ability to win matches. As such, having your Elo rating go up is not a reward - it just means you'll be fighting players who are more accurate, more deadly, to counter your speedy-sneaky capturing. So, the WoW analogy sort of falls down here, it's not a matter of gaining a reward for little work, because there's no reward. If anything, it's a punishment of sorts, because your string of cap wins serves only to make the game more difficult for you in the future.

As to the MWO... You need to understand how Elo changes. It doesn't just go up when you win and down when you lose.

What happens is the matchmaker considers the relative Elo rankings, and from that determines how likely it is for you to win that match. If you're more likely to win, your Elo rating will increase by less when you win, and will decrease by more when you lose.

Tonnage matters less here, because weight classes are already matched. If you have 4 lights, so do they. If your team is all assaults, so is theirs. It IS possible to get a match where you've got a couple Awesomes, Quickdraws, Cicadas and Spiders vs. Atlases, Cataphracts, Centurions and Jenners, but you're not getting matches (barring exceptional circumstances) where you're going to be out-wieghed by 500 tons.

[Damocles]

I'd like to see ELO scrapped and replaced by game lobbies similar to MSN Zone. Power to the players.

[Flapdrol]

Matchmaking is pretty bad, but before elo it was absolutely horrible. elo was an improvement.

Edited by Flapdrol, 01 July 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[Seelenlos]

Wintersdark, on 01 July 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

It's not a way to exploit your Elo rating.

Elo is not a rating of how awesome you are. It is NOT a score, or a ladder ranking. It's an internal tool to match people of relatively equal ability to win matches. As such, having your Elo rating go up is not a reward - it just means
What happens is the matchmaker considers the relative Elo rankings, and from that determines how likely it is for you to win that match. If you're more likely to win, your Elo rating will increase by less when you win, and will decrease by more when you lose.

Thx for the answer.

How you explained it, I understand I will never meet with maybe some kind of players because of ELO.

A question:
What would then happen when we reset the ELO every month and see if the outcomes at the end are the same?

There are no data, at if it evolves the way it should again. You know what I mean?


AND

3 t o1 ECM is not a balanced game of Tonnage, so don't tell it is equal !
I hate games when i win wwith 3 to 1 ecm and know, the other side would have wiped us with the same counts.
What do you tell about that? ELO ? Naaaaaaaaahhh, no plan to program a good algorithm (hey don't look at me i had 5 in maths...., i don't know anything about maths, but i can feel when something is wrong

Regards

Edited by Seelenlos, 01 July 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[Ari Dian]

It seems you have no idea at all what Elo means.....
And Elo has NOTHING to do with the weight of the mechs of the matchmaking.


One part i dont know myself is if MWO is taking the average Elo of the whole team, or each single Elo of everyone and try to match these.

BUT, the basic of the Elo is to get a kind of ranking for the player. To pair the teams with equal players of same Elo to get a more balanced match.
You cant grind the Elo. No mater if you did 10 matches or 10000 matches. If you didnt got better your Elo will stay the same. You can only improve and become better and with this your Elo is raising.
But you can manipulate your Elo to be lower than it should be. By losing tons of games intentional. The only reason for this would be a better chance on tournaments or low Elo stoomping. But no idea if this is worth it. To lose 100 matches just to be king on a handfull matches

Elo in a teammatch is a little difficult. It was made for individual solo competition. In a team match it is the team that is deciding if you win or lose.
In LoL there was something called Elo-Hell. Means if you lost the first few matches your Elo went down. And after this you get teamed with other low Elo players and cant get out of this anymore. But they forget that the other team has the same Elo Level, and it should even up. And if "you", the missmatched player, are really this good, and dont belong to this Elo level, you should carry the team to win (in therory).

Only drawback is when MWO is using the average of a team to make a match. Pairing up a Top Elo player together with some low Elo player against a team of average Elo would be bad. Because this high player "could" carry the team. But its hard to find a solution for premade groups. Eighter MWO has to take the average of the group, or take the highest ELO of the group. Both are not the best solutions.

[Ari Dian]

Seelenlos, on 01 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Thx for the answer.

How you explained it, I understand I will never meet with maybe some kind of players because of ELO.

wrong. If you are this good, to be equal to the high Elo players, you will easy catch up with these. Only the team can make it difficult. The random factor. If you have all the time 1-3 disconnects in your team, it will be hard .

Quote

A question:
What would then happen when we reset the ELO every month and see if the outcomes at the end are the same?

i can answer you this without having to try it.
Matchmaking will be a pain. And playing as a new players will be a pain.
These, that are good and normaly have a high Elo, will be paired against low Elo players. It will be TOTAL unbalanced and not fun for the low Elo players to get slaughtered.

Other side effect: Elo is a long time value. It takes time to flatten out the Elo value. If you reset it every month, it will never become a good indicator.


Again some examples how Elo work (or should work).
You have an Elo of 2500. Your opponent has a Elo of 3500.
If you win, he will lose a lot Elo and you gain a lot of Elo.
If he win he will gain only a few Elo and you lose only a few Elo.

At high Elo a lose is equal to several wins (example from another games: the top Elo player lost against someone who just started was equal to 1000 wins against someone of starting Elo).

So even high Elo is never out of reach for someone who just started. It is not that a person with 100k matches is unreachable because his Elo is so high. What you think is a pure point system for win/lose where you cant catch up to someone who is playing for long time and still playing a lot.

Quote

There are no data, at if it evolves the way it should again. You know what I mean?


AND

3 t o1 ECM is not a balanced game of Tonnage, so don't tell it is equal !
I hate games when i win wwith 3 to 1 ecm and know, the other side would have wiped us with the same counts.
What do you tell about that? ELO ? Naaaaaaaaahhh, no plan to program a good algorithm (hey don't look at me i had 5 in maths...., i don't know anything about maths, but i can feel when something is wrong

Regards

Elo has nothing to do with mech weights or with certain equipments like ECM. Elo is only an indicator and rank for the playskill of the person.
And good player know how to counter ECM or bring one themself (do not understand me wrong, i hate ECM as well and can not counter it. I am not a good player) .

The problem is, if you start to split the matchmaking with to many variables, you will not find any matches anymore.
Elo and mech weight is already enough. If you start to seperate as well by: # of PPC, # of ECM, # of LRMs, ping, .... you will thin out the pool of players way to much for a matchmaking. And in the end it will take forever, find nothing or match unbalanced again.

[Wintersdark]

Seelenlos, on 01 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Thx for the answer. How you explained it, I understand I will never meet with maybe some kind of players because of ELO.

This is true. If you're a great player, you'll never play against really terrible players due to Elo. That's by design, it protects the poor players from being stomped on by really skilled players.

Quote

A question: What would then happen when we reset the ELO every month and see if the outcomes at the end are the same? There are no data, at if it evolves the way it should again.

As Ari Dian notes, this is a terrible idea. Elo is a long term system, it learns how much you contribute to the success of your team, but it does so through "watching" many many matches. It's saved per weight class, so you're going to need roughly 50+ matches for it to really know where you belong. As you get better (or worse) your Elo rating will slowly change to adapt.

Quote

You know what I mean? AND 3 t o1 ECM is not a balanced game of Tonnage, so don't tell it is equal ! I hate games when i win wwith 3 to 1 ecm and know, the other side would have wiped us with the same counts. What do you tell about that? ELO ? Naaaaaaaaahhh, no plan to program a good algorithm (hey don't look at me i had 5 in maths...., i don't know anything about maths, but i can feel when something is wrong Regards

ECM has little to do with winning and losing these days. It's just not that important anymore - a useful tool, but certainly not a game changer. LRM protection? TAG counters. Hidden mechs? "Low signal" warning gives their presence away, Seismic sensor shows where they are. SSRM's not locking? BAP. Also, "Tonnage" is referring only to weight, not the presence or absence of ECM.

I haven't seen a game that was decided or even significantly impacted by ECM in weeks.