721 replies to this topic

[DarkJaguar]

Yeah, PPCs are defiantly the victors as far as heat/dps goes currently. Though it's sort of silly to note that the SRM-$ and SRM-6 (two of the most lamented weapons because they suck) are actually the closest to TT values. Shows you how inflated everything else is.

[Strisk]

So the first half of your post is about how the TT values are balanced and should be used to find a good balance, then the second half is about things that are not from TT that you want added in order to "balance" the game.

While I don't disagree that balance is a touchy issue and could use good ideas, it just seemed weird to me the way this was presented.

I think setting default convergence to the weapons max effective range would be interesting to try out, I'm opposed to any sort of random spread pattern based on how many weapons a mech is firing simultaneously, and I also don't think there is any good reason to limit the number of weapons you can fire at one time.

[The Cheese]

Unbound Inferno, on 02 July 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Doesn't have to be screen shake. That's just poor planning - the trick is in the accuracy shift from the heat. That alone would fix a TON of the issues at hand.

Effects like knock from weapons are extremely important in making the game playable. Anyone who has the old lag-damage issue will tell you how frustrating it is to be taking damage without any noticeable effects.

[DarkJaguar]

Saxie, on 02 July 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

No one wants to shoot an AC 20 4 times over 10 seconds @ 5.0 each. Your games would last at least 30 minutes long with the current armor.

If the points I have laid out are executed, Armor should be returned to normal values (instead of x2). A team of mechs working together should be able to burn down and enemy pretty quickly (Atlas's CT maxes out at something like 80 in TT, usually 60/20 if I'm not mistaken?) Either shoot their rear armor, or focus their CT down with concentrated fire. At the end of the day, this game is supposed to be about team work.

Strisk, on 02 July 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

So the first half of your post is about how the TT values are balanced and should be used to find a good balance, then the second half is about things that are not from TT that you want added in order to "balance" the game.

While I don't disagree that balance is a touchy issue and could use good ideas, it just seemed weird to me the way this was presented.

I think setting default convergence to the weapons max effective range would be interesting to try out, I'm opposed to any sort of random spread pattern based on how many weapons a mech is firing simultaneously, and I also don't think there is any good reason to limit the number of weapons you can fire at one time.

Table Top is a great STARTING point, but it would be foolish of me to think that it would be a one shot thing. The other stuff I added in is my best attempt at translating the random hit locations and the heat effects from table top into an FPS.

[Strisk]

The did start from the TT numbers (other than cool downs, which was a global 10 seconds in TT) and have been adjusting numbers from that starting point since, and ended up where we are now.

The Devs have said since the beginning (like so many other things that may or may not be still getting said by the devs) that pilot aim and not randomness would be the determining factor in combat damage.

I'm not opposed to a system of convergence that does not allow me to pinpoint all my damage in one alpha, but I should be able to predict which of my weapons will land where when I fire without the computer deciding on a random location. This would make close fights won by "luck" (at least perceptually, but most likely in actuality) instead of being able to have complete control over your side of the fight.

If you really want to have a "random" component then lasers need to be hitscan, or they'd all get dumped in the garbage been of my mechbay rather quickly....

[DarkJaguar]

Strisk, on 02 July 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

The did start from the TT numbers (other than cool downs, which was a global 10 seconds in TT) and have been adjusting numbers from that starting point since, and ended up where we are now.

The Devs have said since the beginning (like so many other things that may or may not be still getting said by the devs) that pilot aim and not randomness would be the determining factor in combat damage.

I'm not opposed to a system of convergence that does not allow me to pinpoint all my damage in one alpha, but I should be able to predict which of my weapons will land where when I fire without the computer deciding on a random location. This would make close fights won by "luck" (at least perceptually, but most likely in actuality) instead of being able to have complete control over your side of the fight.

If you really want to have a "random" component then lasers need to be hitscan, or they'd all get dumped in the garbage been of my mechbay rather quickly....

Negative, the devs have NEVER used TT numbers. They may have used TT damage amounts, but that's not the same. A PPC in TT does 10 damage over 10 seconds. That same PPC in MWO does between 20 and 30 damage in the same 10 second window. The difference is 1.0 DPS to 2.0-3.0 DPS. Likewise an AC5 in TT does 5 damage over 10 seconds, whereas in MWO it does 30-35 damage. The difference between .5 DPS and 3.0-3.5 DPS. These are not TT values at all.

Additionally, nowhere in BT has it ever stated that weapons have a global cool down of 10 seconds. Rather the "turn" is 10 seconds long, and the weapon deals that amount of damagewithin that time period. So by using proper TT DPS and HPS values, and adding in a factor to simulate the random hit table while still taking into account player skill you've done a TON to balance an outright flawed game.

Additionally, the amount of divergence from the aim point is the width of a hunchback at that weapon's max range. If you're aiming at the center of mass, are within heat tolerances, and are not taxing your targeting computer, you will hit your target, just not all in the same pixel.

Edited by DarkJaguar, 02 July 2013 - 02:07 AM.

[The Cheese]

See, my problem with this whole "make an AC/20 spread it's damage over 10 seconds" thing is that it kills the feel of the weapon.
The thing that makes the AC/20 scary isn't the raw damage output. It's the fact that it can put all that damage in one place. It's the reason people don't want to take a single AC/20 round to the face, but they're comfortable with 10 AC/2 rounds.

In my opinion, capturing the correct 'feel' for each weapon and system is FAR more important than the numbers it takes to achieve it. I would go so far as to say they they should scrap the entire stat system that we have now and rebuild it with the objective of getting the whole system to 'feel' the way they want it to, rather than try and shoehorn it all in amongst some numbers which, as far as this game are concerned, are completely arbitrary.

Whenever someone says "go with the TT numbers", they ALL have to add some other system to make them fit more easily the real-time nature of the game, or to make things 'feel' right. If the TT rules adapted so well to a real-time game, why the need for additional mechanics, and if the TT rules can't fit the real-time game without significant modification and supplementary systems, why try to stick with them?

As for the convergence issue, I maintain my stance that I've had all along: Arbitrarily enforced randomness is a horrible balancing mechanic. People will just start using whichever build is least affected by it. The "converge at max range of weapon" is an interesting idea though.

[EvilCow]

Converting TT values does not work, try to balance an AC2 doing 2 damage over 10 seconds at 6tons weight. TT DPS values are simply wrong for an online game.

You can just do what PGI is doing (in a less than optimal way I must agree): keep a resemblance of the TT damage value and attempt to obtain a balanced DPS by working on recycle or other parameters not contemplated in TT (spread, splash, trajectory, speed, convergence etc).

Edited by EvilCow, 02 July 2013 - 02:14 AM.

[Strisk]

ok, so obviously the word numbers means something different to us....and I understand that rounds were 10 seconds and cool downs were not exactly, blah blah fluff fluff, but the fact remains you could cause damage in the TT only every 10 seconds, that's what a cool down is....

You want something different out of this game than when I want so I'll not argue small things here.

I'm not looking for a three dimensional recreation of the table top game where I happen to be sitting inside one of the mechs...I'd prefer to have a greater role in the outcome of the battle than that

[Kyynele]

At the moment, machine guns do 20% of current AC/20's DPS. They weigh 0.5 tons, generate no heat at all, and are considered useless waste of hardpoints, and needing more buffs to be viable.

Somehow - with those pure TT values - AC/2 doing 10% of AC/20 DPS would be fine and balanced, despite weighing 6 tons (over 40% of AC/20 weight) and still generating a tiny bit of heat.

I can't see why this would work, sorry. Perhaps you can explain this further?

[Tekkiller]

Great write up DJ. Personally, for me the PPC/LL Boating is the biggest problem, some of which can be addressed by a combination of the Convergence mechancic and Power output mechanic you propose.

I generally don't like RNG so I am not sure I like the idea of adding a random modifier to targeting. It should be the limitations of the weapons system and how a pilot handles such limitation, not RNG, that drives where the shots impact.

Overall, great thread.

[Schrottfrosch]

The Cheese, on 02 July 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

See, my problem with this whole "make an AC/20 spread it's damage over 10 seconds" thing is that it kills the feel of the weapon.
The thing that makes the AC/20 scary isn't the raw damage output. It's the fact that it can put all that damage in one place. It's the reason people don't want to take a single AC/20 round to the face, but they're comfortable with 10 AC/2 rounds.

In my opinion, capturing the correct 'feel' for each weapon and system is FAR more important than the numbers it takes to achieve it...

And this is the problem - most people think that an AC/20 HAS to apply all its damage to one hitlocation - which means the weapon has the right "feel" (same case with Gauss and PPC).

At the same time though the overall feeling of the game of giant metal-behemoths slugging it out is getting oneshotted by those weapons, as soon as you sport more than one. Them it becomes more like planetside 2, where someone with a shotgun comes around the corner and your squad is suddenly dead...

And now imagine 'mechs with 3 AC/20s, 3 Gaussrifles and not to mention Clan Ultra AC/20s and light Gaussrifles...

You know why I would rather play Hawken or Planetside 2 atm?
Because I can respawn within 10 seconds and execute revenge easily and a low TTK (time to kill) is thus no problem...

While in mechwarrior I have to wait at least 30 seconds to find a match - another 15 for the countdown and power up - then another minute to maneuver around and make contact with the enemy - when now I die due to 2 dual AC/20 volleys within 5 seconds it is just plainly frustrating. Not to mention, that my mech is locked for the rest of the game (which can take up to a total of 15 minutes). Also my 'mech doesnt feel awesome exactly if that happens...

And just to throw a number into the room - imo an alpha strike should exceed 18 damage by not much - why? Because thats eventually a kill with one alpha strike (18 armor on head) - the max damage of a slug from an AC/20 (in case for example of the Chemjet cassette, which fires 3 shots per cassette) should be around 6 - because you can field 3 AC/20s at some time in the future, the massive recoil of 3 AC/20s fired at the same time should lead to quite some deviation of the remaining 2 shots coming from the cassettes of each AC/20 which makes those hit other locations like left right torso or eventually go wild...

I'll also just leave these pictures here:



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[stjobe]

As I have at one time or the other argued all these points myself since back in closed beta, I agree completely with the OP's assessment of the underlying issues plaguing MWO.

[Miken]

I am tottaly agreed with topic starter

[peerless]

Kyynele, on 02 July 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Somehow - with those pure TT values - AC/2 doing 10% of AC/20 DPS would be fine and balanced, despite weighing 6 tons (over 40% of AC/20 weight) and still generating a tiny bit of heat.

I can't see why this would work, sorry. Perhaps you can explain this further?

Firstly, history: in the board game, ac2 and ac5 both predate the ac10 and ac20. Coupled with sticking to the original numbers, this meant that the ac10 and 20 were balanced by a slightly more experienced game designer.

The ac2 and ac5 were not really comparable weapons against mechs. Rather than change the weapons, they (at first through fluff) made these weapons better at dealing with aeros and to some extent, tanks. Eventually game mechanics aligned with specialized ammo to make them great area denial to aeros. But that won't help mwo. The ac2 and ac5 will not be balanced correctly with this particular method of determining values.

Other weapons that are like that are the MG's, flamers, pulse lasers, and maybe lbx. These weapons have a trait that may not translate as literally as DPS does for other weapons. It's still a good starting point to balance them all based on performance at range as well as their mass, crits.

[Wargeisen]

I have said it before in another thread, but all this was almost perfectly translated from TT to real time game in MechCommander.
Just take the time to look at the damage and rate of fire of the weapons: we have TT value, and the battle did not take more than a few minutes.
Big damage weapons ? long recharge time. Others ? multiple hit possibilities.

Otherwise I can only support the global idea.

[Tombstoner]

Strisk, on 02 July 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

The Devs have said since the beginning (like so many other things that may or may not be still getting said by the devs) that pilot aim and not randomness would be the determining factor in combat damage.

They can try and hold on to that outdated paradigm... reality will and has forced there hand. The solution PIG implemented to correct pop tarting is a heavy handed RNG. PGI recognized pop tarting + pin point damage is bad for the game but is hesitant to go all in with new systems like TCL and COF.

Basically they want a FPS without a COF, but most FPS weapons have a COF for balance except the Sniper weapons. PGI has rebuilt MW3 and 4 multiplayer with new skins. People liked those games in the same way people have nostalgia for PONG: its all they had.

i think PGI is coming around to a COF... kicking and screaming but its for the best. if any other alternative worked i think we would have it in place. PGI's paradigm is holding them back.

Edited by Tombstoner, 02 July 2013 - 03:56 AM.

[The Cheese]

Schrottfrosch, on 02 July 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

And this is the problem - most people think that an AC/20 HAS to apply all its damage to one hitlocation - which means the weapon has the right "feel" (same case with Gauss and PPC).

At the same time though the overall feeling of the game of giant metal-behemoths slugging it out is getting oneshotted by those weapons, as soon as you sport more than one. Them it becomes more like planetside 2, where someone with a shotgun comes around the corner and your squad is suddenly dead...

And now imagine 'mechs with 3 AC/20s, 3 Gaussrifles and not to mention Clan Ultra AC/20s and light Gaussrifles...

While in mechwarrior I have to wait at least 30 seconds to find a match - another 15 for the countdown and power up - then another minute to maneuver around and make contact with the enemy - when now I die due to 2 dual AC/20 volleys within 5 seconds it is just plainly frustrating. Not to mention, that my mech is locked for the rest of the game (which can take up to a total of 15 minutes). Also my 'mech doesnt feel awesome exactly if that happens...

The point I was trying to make is that the thing that makes an AC/20 an AC/20 isn't specifically how much damage it does overall, it's how it applies it. The same thing goes for other weapons. There are a ton of ways to get around the high-alpha pinpoint problem without taking away from the individuality of weapon types. People have put forward some great suggestions in the forums, but nothing ever comes of it.

Edited by The Cheese, 02 July 2013 - 04:19 AM.

[DerSpecht]

There is one only legit reason why PGI cant fix balance:

In a mmo-game with constantly growing content achieving the state of balance is impossible. PERIOD.

There is not one game out there wihtout balancing issues. Even eve online or anarchy online try to balnace the game with every patch balance the games after being 10+ years released and live (yea even that moron-magnet blizzard created).

There always is FOTM and its always changing. Missiles, PPCS, ballistics, flamers. Who knows what it will be next year. Just deal with it or leave.

[Emery Radick]

An open letter to the OP.

The damage is about where it should be. If you want TT values please go play TT. DPS is a stat that should only be talked about in a game where you can auto hit I.E. WoW. As stated in your chart the A/C 2 has the highest DPS in the game if you moved all weapons to this formula most everything would become useless. People take an A/C 20 for high one shot damage. If DPS was the goal high alpha weapons would never be used. When a game becomes about DPS only the highest DPS ever gets played.

The heat I agree on. It needs to be tweaked.

Convergence. No. Just no. Randomness is not something that belongs in a game of skill. A convergence penalty at high heat levels I could live with but if I have time to line up the shot it should hit where it is aimed.With the DPS changes you provide plus the convergence garbage would shift the game 100% to brawlin warrior online. Where you just get so close you can't miss.

The power load stuff is just absolute garbage. Not even going to take the time to go over just how badly that would screw this game.

We have to move away from TT thinking and provide meaningful feedback on the system as it stands. Most of the weapons in the game are balanced and PGI is taking a good approach here of late with small tweaks. It's better than it has ever been before and posts like this just dilute what we should really be doing. They are not going to change the system because going by TT is a really dumb idea that would NEVER work in a real time game based on players skill.