38 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Right now Gauss is close to balanced (Heavy, Large, Fragile, explosive, etc..)
AC20 is a bit farther from balanced due to the Ballistic range mechanic.

Suggestion overall: Bring Ballistic "over-range" down to 2x instead of 3. (brings them in line with lasers, and doesn't have the AC20 doing better than the AC10 at the AC10s optimum range.)

Suggestion Gauss Rifle:
Up the CD to 5. (Right now it's comfortable for a Jager to put dual Gauss on the mech and fight without the need for any support weapons..because the Gauss fires fast enough. Make the Gauss fire slower and pay for it's ranged low heat capability a little bit more...At least Gauss Jager's will be a bit more edgy about getting up into the mix, and pay more when it ends up in a mix.

Suggestion AC20:
Up the CD to 5. (Also comfortable and lucrative for a Jager to boat them because the CD of 4 allows them to fight with just the AC20s, where backup weapons are optional. Make it pay for the comparatively very high damage/weight ratio with a longer CD. It will slow brawling down a little bit, but that's what you have Lasers and SRMs (backup weapons) for.

Suggestions PPC/ERPPC:
Up their respective heats by 2. (10/13) and drop the CD back to 3. Allow the PPC to fire more often, but at the player's risk. It allows the PPC to still perform a burst DPS role- but also makes it more difficult to boat simply because of the heat generation. (Keep the 2000m/s speed, it makes it worth having at its actual high heat.)

--------------------
(All of this of course on top of real heat penalties.)

Discuss. (Better options?)
(Don't bother talking to me about convergence, removal or otherwise, it isn't pertinent to this.)

-Live

[Karl Streiger]

The change for PPC is accepted - i have two mechs - each with a single PPC - they will have some benefit.
The COD for the AC 20 will bring it in line with the AC 10 - same DPS - plus the fact that you have to fight at shorter ranges - plus the slower velocity of the projectile.....

I don't think that the single AC 20 was ever a problem - quiet the opposite - remember the change to make it more durable.... because a single AC 20 is complete lackluster - it is only dangerous in twin mount.

Gauss - fine weapon actually - allthough 5sec cycle time wouldn't be that worse - no heat, high damage, long range - why not. maybe an increase of durability - maybe 5 or so?

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Instead of 5s cd for both Gauss and AC20, why not 4.25? They can bump it up again if it isn't enough. Better to do small, incremental changes than sweeping ones.

In general, though, the AC20 and Gauss both seem like they're in a pretty good place right now. The problem isn't the AC20, it's the AC10 and AC5 (and UAC5 in the opposite direction). Give the AC10 the LB-10X's range profile (or closer to it perhaps) and a slight bump to projectile speed and I think it'd do pretty well, while the AC5 needs to get another rate of fire bump (and the UAC5 needs to be reduced to match the AC5 when not double-tapping).

[El Bandito]

Still doesn't solve the problem of pin-point alphas though. I mean, 45 damage (3PPC+Gauss) long range alpha per 5 seconds is still as bad as 45 damage long range alpha per 4 seconds. 5 seconds of wait time will cancel out the higher heat of PPC change. Consequently you will see people still boating sniper weapons.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 July 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Elizander]

The cooldown of the weapons are irrelevant considering the fact that boating 3 PPCs is already the equivalent of 6 Medium Lasers in one go. I'll admit that the PPC is very easy to hit with given the speed it travels at which diminishes the role of Large Lasers to some degree.

A possible solution might be to increase the radius of the projectile itself and make it splash to other parts if it does not hit dead center on a component.

[El Bandito]

Elizander, on 03 July 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

The cooldown of the weapons are irrelevant considering the fact that boating 3 PPCs is already the equivalent of 6 Medium Lasers in one go. I'll admit that the PPC is very easy to hit with given the speed it travels at which diminishes the role of Large Lasers to some degree. A possible solution might be to increase the radius of the projectile itself and make it splash to other parts if it does not hit dead center on a component.

And reduce PPC speed to 1500. Add some actual skill to it.

[mike29tw]

GJ for coming up with a solution that is NOT convoluted. We need more of these.

All of your suggestions seem nice, I pretty much agree with everything you've said. However, people can still boat PPCs so i'm rather curious about your "real heat penalty", can you address what's your ideal heat penalty?

Edited by mike29tw, 03 July 2013 - 05:08 AM.

[CutterWolf]

Why are you trying to change weapons when its the "fact" its the system PGI put into place to make them boatable that is to blame? Fixing that system is the answer, not ripping a part weapons. PGI only needs to add in "weapon limitations system" into the game and the problem is solved. It is just that simple.

None of the weapons your listing are out of balance at all. It is the plain and simple fact that you can boat those weapons on mechs that should not be able to carry them in that number that is broken. Fix that fact and the game balances its self.

Look at why the Gauss Rifle got hit so hard with the nerf bat, "because Mechs namely the Catapult K2 was able to mount two of them in ballistic slots that should of never aloud it to mount even one in the first place. The only problem with PPC's is the fact that just about every damm mech in the game can carry them and mechs that should not be able to mount more than 2 can mount up to 6. And soon the Battlemaster could be able to carry 7. Your issue with the AC-20 is due based on the fact of mechs that can carry more than one.


If you continue to nerf these weapons the players will just fine the next best thing to boat and so on and so on and so on. It is a never ending cycle unless you fix the true core problem.

Edited by CutterWolf, 03 July 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[Livewyr]

Karl Streiger, on 03 July 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

The change for PPC is accepted - i have two mechs - each with a single PPC - they will have some benefit.
The COD for the AC 20 will bring it in line with the AC 10 - same DPS - plus the fact that you have to fight at shorter ranges - plus the slower velocity of the projectile.....

I don't think that the single AC 20 was ever a problem - quiet the opposite - remember the change to make it more durable.... because a single AC 20 is complete lackluster - it is only dangerous in twin mount.

Gauss - fine weapon actually - allthough 5sec cycle time wouldn't be that worse - no heat, high damage, long range - why not. maybe an increase of durability - maybe 5 or so?

I would argue that the single AC20 is certainly not lackluster. (my YLW is my most successful mech) Although upon thinking about it, the 2x Range nerf may be enough for it to be brought back in line. Even twin mounted doesn't look like all that much when it does 0 damage at 541 meters.

El Bandito, on 03 July 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Still doesn't solve the problem of pin-point alphas though. I mean, 45 damage (3PPC+Gauss) long range alpha per 5 seconds is still as bad as 45 damage long range alpha per 4 seconds. 5 seconds of wait time will cancel out the higher heat of PPC change. Consequently you will see people still boating sniper weapons.

(I said PPCs went back to CD of 3, with the higher heat.)
45 pinpoint damage is indeed nasty, but the idea here is to make it so that someone using skill to get in close for a brawl will punish the sniper. (Currently one can brawl with PPCs/Gauss... I do if I need to)
Gauss already doesn't like to brawl much due to vulnerability to explosion, but it still can fairly well due to RoF. PPCs can brawl due to heat reduction. Bump up the CD of the GR, and the Heat of the PPC and you have someone who can kinda defend himself at close range, but is at a severe disadvantage compared to brawling weapons.

Elizander, on 03 July 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

The cooldown of the weapons are irrelevant considering the fact that boating 3 PPCs is already the equivalent of 6 Medium Lasers in one go. I'll admit that the PPC is very easy to hit with given the speed it travels at which diminishes the role of Large Lasers to some degree.

A possible solution might be to increase the radius of the projectile itself and make it splash to other parts if it does not hit dead center on a component.

This is kinda how it was in CB.. and the PPC was almost never used. Splash damage on a direct projectile weapon is automatically not worth it compared to pinpoint weapons. (See LBX)

mike29tw, on 03 July 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

GJ for coming up with a solution that is NOT convoluted. We need more of these.

All of your suggestions seem nice, I pretty much agree with everything you've said. However, people can still boat PPCs so i'm rather curious about your "real heat penalty", can you address what's your ideal heat penalty?

Real heat penalty is: (Arbitrary numbers that sound nice)
Including (sliding scale that starts reducing top speed from 100% speed at 50% heat, gradually more drastic to 50% speed at 99% heat)
Other effects:
50% Heat- warning (that can be toggled on/off by checkbox)
70% Heat- torso twist begins to suffer. (Scale of Twist speed lost between (100% at 70%-60% at 99%):::Cockpit starts becoming steamy- visibility becomes a factor at range
80% Heat- Weapon CDs are extended by 30%::::Cockpit gets a little steamier- Visibility factor increases.
90% Heat Weapon CDs are extended by 60%::::Cockpit very steamy, but can still somewhat see::::Warning Klaxon begins:::Heatsinks and Ammo begin to take damage: 1 damage every 3 seconds... arbitrarily.
100% Autoshutdown: Only shapes really visible outside window due to steam::::Heatsinks and Ammo taking 1 damage every 2 seconds:::All Critical spaces (except head..) begin takin damage 1 per 3 seconds (with critical hit possibility):::Internal Structure taking damage 1 damage per 3 seconds.
110+% All Critical Spaces taking 1 damage per 2 seconds::::Heatsinks and Ammo taking 1 damage every second:::::internal structure taking 1 damage per 2 seconds.


Just arbitrary numbers, but Flamers might actually mean something to that end... lol

[Jonny Taco]

Solution is weapon size restrictions for each weapon hardpoint that varies based on mech and chasis of course.

All other fixes are simply bandaids treating the symptome rather than the cause.

[Tynan]

Funny thing is that PPCs would largely be fine if they just rolled back the bandaids they implemented before HSR went in. Remember those days? When *no one* used PPCs because the hits never registered? That's when they upped the projectile speeds and lowered the heat to make them more attractive since they were basically impossible to use. Put their heat and projectile speed back where they were, and while it's not a perfect solution, it's a step towards what they ought to be.

[CutterWolf]

lartfor, on 03 July 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Solution is weapon size restrictions for each weapon hardpoint that varies based on mech and chasis of course.

All other fixes are simply bandaids treating the symptome rather than the cause.

Yes! Let's treat the cause not the symptome

[Enigmos]

Asking Piranha to regulate PPCs just to eliminate another player's solution is like a politician rigging an election rather than changing his political platform.

Wouldn't it be more honest to give those who boat PPCs a reason to change their ways by finding a way to consistently beat their PPC boats in-game?

[MaddMaxx]

lartfor, on 03 July 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Solution is weapon size restrictions for each weapon hard-point that varies based on mech and chassis of course.

All other fixes are simply band-**** treating the symptom rather than the cause.

Never played MW4 did you good sir? That suggestion, again, does nothing but make the game into a "pick a weight class, next, pick the one "best chassis load-out and all the rest simply don't matter, ever.

Or do you have a "size restriction system" that the players could not abuse or simply take the best and leave the rest? If so please, do share...

[Livewyr]

I see your point, but I disagree on two "fronts."

A: Limiting customization with hardpoint sizes (or whatever system you might having mind for "weapon limitations system" would automatically set 1 or 2 mechs as premier for doing anything based on whatever (arbitrary) limitations are imposed. The idea behind free customization is so that mechs like the Catapult K2 aren't completely relegated to a laser platform, so you don't have to just go to a dragon or cataphract to have a ballistic hardpoint..

CutterWolf, on 03 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Why are you trying to change weapons when its the "fact" its the system PGI put into place to make them boatable that is to blame? Fixing that system is the answer, not ripping a part weapons. PGI only needs to add in "weapon limitations system" into the game and the problem is solved. It is just that simple.

See above. (And ask yourself: without making everything a stock mech, what limitations should we impose that won't make 1-2 mechs the prime/only contender in their field?)

CutterWolf, on 03 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

None of the weapons your listing are out of balance at all. It is the plain and simple fact that you can boat those weapons on mechs that should not be able to carry them in that number that is broken. Fix that fact and the game balances its self.

If you fix the weapons at the core, boating them is fixed.
And yes, they are out of balance.

CutterWolf, on 03 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Look at why the Gauss Rifle got hit so hard with the nerf bat, "because Mechs namely the Catapult K2 was able to mount two of them in ballistic slots that should of never aloud it to mount even one in the first place.

Actually, it's because the Gauss had 1dmg-1ton ratio, second only to AC20 in ballistics, while being smaller and almost no heat. The Gauss is/was the bet ballistic in every way- so they had to make it vulnerable to carry as a trade off. And that was very successful, just not quite enough.

CutterWolf, on 03 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

The only problem with PPC's is the fact that just about every damm mech in the game can carry them and mechs that should not be able to mount more than 2 can mount up to 6. And soon the Battlemaster could be able to carry 7.

Again, fix the weapon. If the PPCs generated massive heat like they were supposed to, boating them would be a painful experience. Sure, you can put 7PPCs on your battlemaster if you want to- you'd get to alpha once.

PPCs are easiest to boat because they're light, small, and require no ammo- and right now they don't generate enough heat to be painful to boat.

CutterWolf, on 03 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Your issue with the AC-20 is due based on the fact of mechs that can carry more than one.

Actually, it's that the AC20 which is two tons more than the AC10, does BETTER than the AC10 at the AC10's own range. AC20 has the best Damage, at the best Damage per ton ratio of any weapon in the game, its weakness is supposed to be range. Give it its weakness back- bring Ballistic over-range down to 2x.

Yeah, you'd still have AC40s at 270 meters..but at 541 meters, you'd have AC0s Incidentally.. about the optimal range of a standard PPC.

CutterWolf, on 03 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

If you continue to nerf these weapons the players will just fine the next best thing to boat and so on and so on and so on. It is a never ending cycle unless you fix the true core problem.

Do you know why these weapons get boated? It isn't because PGI hasn't implemented an "weapon limiting system" its because these weapons give the most bang for their tonnage/space/heat buck.

How many AC10 boats do you see? I think I've seen 2 since I started in OB.. and I was 1 of them, for 1 round.
Why? Because for the 10 damage, the AC10 weighs 12 tons and is the same size as a Gauss Rifle. That's 2 tons less than the AC20(twice its damage) and almost twice the tonnage of the PPC(same damage) and it takes up more than twice the space of the PPC(same damage)

Gauss- Low/no heat 1dmg/ton medium size. Boatable for damage/heat ratio and range.
PPC- High-ish heat, 1.4 dmg/ton, small size. Unlimited ammo Boatable for Size/weight/ammo/range (and insufficient heat)
AC20- Medium/High heat, 1.4 dmg/ton, large size, highest damage, medium range. Boatable for damage/range.

These things are boated for their damage per ton. (Alpha strike value for mounting price.)

---------------------

Nobody really complains about AC5 boats, AC10 boats, or really even UAC5 boats (they jam too much)
Because their damage/ton just doesn't cut it in the Alpha Strike meta where the range is made up and the heat don't matter.

Make heat more important, and on weapons it isn't important on, make something else matter. (Over-range Range/RoF)

[MaddMaxx]

OriginalTibs, on 03 July 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

"snip"

Wouldn't it be more honest to give those who boat PPCs a reason to change their ways by finding a way to consistently beat their PPC boats in-game?

Given that the (er)PPC has the second best damage (10pts.) to range (+/- 650m) profile, the best we can hope for is to "allow" those PPC boaters the ability to beat themselves. If we wait for the second half of the Heat change scenario, the "stacking Penalty" system to be put in place, then the pair of mechanics, shutdown damage and stacked heat, can be adjusted in conjunction with each other, to hopefully alleviate the issue, hopefully for the non boaters at least, once and for all.

The whole "radical" idea that Mechs should just explode when at all Hot is simply BS. There is no FUN, ever, in that.

The Grognards will have to deal with it best they can. The player base is diverse and we hope to make it vast. Blowing yourself up, while learning a game that actually has a learning curve, is not ever a good thing.

[Renaissance]

The heat penalty they implemented last patch is the perfect solution to the boating problem. It is not a band-aid solution but the permanent and effective solution we have all been waiting for. PPC boats no longer exist in MWO. High-damage alphas are no longer the flavor of the month after this last patch fixed it forever.

I said that PPC boats are no longer an issue for the game.

Good day, sir.

I SAID GOOD DAY, SIR.

[Andrew Cranston]

Livewyr, on 03 July 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

What he said

Look, the problem isn't hard point limitations, that leads to what Maxx and a few others mentioned. It also totally ignores weapons balance once Clans arrive, with Omnimechs and the fact that a lot of stock configs like the Warhawk come boated. I still think a series of subsystems like what Paul has mentioned will work best, IF they're properly tuned. The changes they made yesterday to heat from shutdown were fairly laughable. "Oh no, I just fired 6 PPCs twice while using a coolshot, fired a third time with an override, and I took 5 damage to my center torso." Exceeding 100% heat should be risky and dangerous. It shouldn't elicit a "oops, now I'm shut down for a few seconds." The response needs to be "I really hope that last shot was worth it, because that was painful." Boated energy weapons should be costly in terms of heat and should require skill to manage that heat/pick optimal shots. The other subsystem Paul mentioned previously was stacking heat/heat penalties for boating weapons, which should effectively kill the worst boats IF tuned properly. They shouldn't just target energy weapons with that either. If they manage to address SRM/LRM boating with the stacking heat/heat penalties system you've just balanced a large portion of the game. That leaves ballistics. The AC20 changes mentioned in OP sound good, I'd also consider a slight nerf to amount of ammo per ton for that weapon in addition to severe damage reduction past effective range. That changes the current "I'm going to run into general short range and fire every CD" to "I need to get in close and choose my shots carefully." Gauss are pretty much right on line with where they need to be. The weapon explosions make it so that boating the weapon turns you into a glass cannon. It's risky to take one and anyone who gets into a brawl with one is crazy. You have to stay back and pick your shots. I'd be completely fine with a slight nerf to its ammo per ton as well.

**Edit** I forgot the other part of the second subsystem, which was specialization/exemptions from the system for certain Mechs. This might actually let certain chassis be viable for what they were meant to do. Awesomes running 3-4 PPCs, etc.

Edited by Andrew Cranston, 03 July 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Accursed Richards]

OriginalTibs, on 03 July 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Asking Piranha to regulate PPCs just to eliminate another player's solution is like a politician rigging an election rather than changing his political platform.

Wouldn't it be more honest to give those who boat PPCs a reason to change their ways by finding a way to consistently beat their PPC boats in-game?

Because it's not like highly skilled players have been trying to do that or anything.

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not sure why anyone wants the AC/20 to have the DPS of the AC/10, and why we'd not rather raise the AC/10 DPS to that of the AC/20.

Besides that, the problem is often the pinpoint damage, and the cycle rate is not that critical. Evidence A would be PPCs, that got a recycle rate nerf. It was a 25 % nerf in DPS, and people still use it a lot.

You need to lower the single shot damage, or dela with convergence + group fire.