38 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Yes, if your Mech shutsdown it may take damage now even if you do not hit override restart.

So, no more energy boats. No more 6xPPC Stalkers.

The only alpha boats will be Ballistic ones. 2xAC20. SRMs, SSRMs.

It's not major damage, but it seems to scale with how hard you push the heat range. You will self-destruct after about 10 minor shutdowns, more or less.

[Homeless Bill]

Wrong. Took out my 4xPPC Stalker and crushed some kids. Hill-humping and pinpoint cheese is still in full effect.

[Damocles69]

nothing changed. run your PPC boats as normal. WORKING AS INTENDED!

[jakucha]

Homeless Bill, on 02 July 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Wrong. Took out my 4xPPC Stalker and crushed some kids. Hill-humping and pinpoint cheese is still in full effect.

Just a first step, not the thing that's meant to curb boating on its own.

[Lightfoot]

Well, no one said you couldn't run an energy boat, Bill, but if you shutdown you will take minor damage similar to a 7 point laser hit, so the 6xPPC Stalker is dead. Bring it if you want, but you will be partially cored before anyone takes a shot at you.

Damocles69, on 02 July 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

nothing changed. run your PPC boats as normal. WORKING AS INTENDED!

Nope. You can kill yourself with 3xPPCs on Caustic or Tourmaline by shutting down too much and each time you push the mech into shutting down you make it that much easier for your opponents.

I could go for no overrides without a chance of self destruction, but at some point you have to make heatsinks better or everyone will blow there own mechs up with stock configurations.

Anyway, I think it will work better than you imagine. We'll see.

Edited by Lightfoot, 02 July 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Homeless Bill]

Lightfoot, on 02 July 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Bring it if you want, but you will be partially cored before anyone takes a shot at you.

First and only round of the morning in the Stalker: 684 damage, 3 kills, 4 assists, died by overheating. Sounds like a fair trade to me =P

I'm not saying it's a bad thing or that it's wholly ineffective (it's good and I'm glad they finally put it in), but it isn't going to put any cheese on the sidelines. The 6xPPC build might diminish in numbers, but I always thought that thing was a piece of **** compared to the 4xPPC one anyways. Plus, as long as they can get off one alpha, you can bet it'll be around.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Check the patch notes. If you go over 120% heat, regardless of shutdown or over ride, you'll take damage to your CT equal to 0.75 + .001 damage per ton + .001 damage per point of engine rating every 1.5 seconds until you're heat falls below 100%.

[Tezcatli]

jakucha, on 02 July 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Just a first step, not the thing that's meant to curb boating on its own.

Yeah. The heat penalty for multiple weapons hasn't been introduced yet.

[NinetyProof]

Lightfoot, on 02 July 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I could go for no overrides without a chance of self destruction, but at some point you have to make heatsinks better or everyone will blow there own mechs up with stock configurations.

Or everyone could just *pay* attention to their heat? and not decide to alpha when they are sitting at 90%?

Yea ... bad players will be bad and will end up cored from the inside out.

Lrn2ManageHeat?

[Ryokens leap]

I bet if someone made a poll 90% of players wouldn't even know that a temp gauge was in the cockpit, lol.

[Caviel]

Lightfoot, on 02 July 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Nope. You can kill yourself with 3xPPCs on Caustic or Tourmaline by shutting down too much and each time you push the mech into shutting down you make it that much easier for your opponents.

I could go for no overrides without a chance of self destruction, but at some point you have to make heatsinks better or everyone will blow there own mechs up with stock configurations.

Anyway, I think it will work better than you imagine. We'll see.

Posted this in another thread:

(30 (Base cap) + 20 (Engine DHS Bonus) + 15 (Ext. DHS Bonus)) * 1.2 (Elite Heat containment)= 78 heat max threshold
78 * 1.2 = 93.6 heat level for 120%

(10 * 2 + 11 * 1.4) * .1 * 1.15 (Elite heat dissipation) = 4.071 heat dissipated per second

4 * 11 = 44 heat generated for 4 ER PPC alpha
6 * 8 = 48 heat generated for 6 PPC alpha

So presuming the Stalker pilot does an alpha strike while stationary, and immediately alphas again as soon as the PPCs are off cooldown:

PPC: 44 - 4.071 * 4 + 44 = 71.716 heat
ER PPC: 48 - 4.071 * 4 + 48 = 79.716 heat

Third consecutive alpha shot:
PPC: 71.716 - 4.071 * 4 + 44 = 99.432 heat (5.832 heat over 120% cap)
ER PPC: 79.716 - 4.071 * 4 + 48 = 111.432 heat (17.832 heat over 120% cap)

So a fully upgraded Stalker would, in the worst case pressure scenario of back to back alphas, take absolutely no heat damage, even using the hotter 4 ER PPC setup over the 6 PPC setup. It would take three consecutive alpha strikes with no cool down time between in order for this to even be a factor. It would take between 2-4.5 seconds to avoid damage between three shots.

Let's say the stalker actually hits the 120% threshold of 93.6:

93.6 - 78 = 15.6 heat to vent before hitting 100%
15.6 / 4.071 = 3.832 seconds to vent the heat
0.75 damage + 0.085 damage per ton + 0.280 damage per engine rating = 1.115 damage per tick
3.832 / 1.5 = 2.55 "ticks" of damage

2 * 1.115 = 2.23 damage
3 * 1.115 = 3.345 damage (Conservative total via rounding up number of ticks)

3 alphas of 4 ER PPC = 8.21 seconds, or 5/6 ticks = 5.575/6.69 damage
3 alphas of 6 PPC = 5.26 seconds, or 3.5/4 ticks = 3.90/4.46 damage

A Stalker's CT internals have 54 HP.

These totals do not take into account environmental effects such as hot or cool maps, or mech movement as that will also generate heat. It does factor in the bonuses from x2 Heat Containment and x2 Heat Dissipation bonuses. It is also based on the worst case piloting of back to back alphas which is not a normal thing for the build. The heat max level also assumes you gain a heat cap equivalent to the heat sink rating which may or may not be correct.

From what I see, unless you explicitly override shutdown, and fire again, this change does nothing to curb PPC Stalkers in the current meta and further/other adjustments are absolutely needed. Even with this, a simple 2-4.5 second pause for the three alphas will avoid any overheat damage.

[Siegwald]

Just came back from a match where I cored a very hot but otherwise untouched LRM Stalker (dark yellow CT) in one 6 ML salvo with my Jenner-F from behind.

So yeah, watch out a bit more.

I'm not saying all is well, but I kinda like the small steps in the right direction more than the giant leaps we had before.
It's continuing to get better IMNSHO.

Cheers, Siegwald

[Caviel]

Siegwald, on 02 July 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Just came back from a match where I cored a very hot but otherwise untouched LRM Stalker (dark yellow CT) in one 6 ML salvo with my Jenner-F from behind.

20 + 54 * .5 = 47

5 * 6 = 30

[NinetyProof]

Your assuming starting from zero heat ... and come on ... how often do you actually have *zero* heat in a fight?

Redo your math ... but this time start from 95% heat and see what happens with a 6 PPC boat that fires an alpha. Lots of times, players just panic ... they fired an alpha that puts them near the top then:

*OMG ATLAS IN MY FACE **** PRAY PRAY FOR HEADSHOT *** ALPHA AWAY ***"

That is the type of thing that is going to cause damage ... not starting from scratch and getting to 60ish then getting close to 120ish ... but more like just hit 90% / 95% and freak out and do a 70% Alpha.

Edited by NinetyProof, 02 July 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Siegwald]

Caviel, on 02 July 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

20 + 54 * .5 = 47

5 * 6 = 30

I actually made such a face in RL. And the guys in TS can attest to some strange sounds, too, I bet.

He must've put near to no armor on the backside or I was very very lucky with crits...

Cheers, Siegwald

[Caviel]

NinetyProof, on 02 July 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Your assuming starting from zero heat ... and come on ... how often do you actually have *zero* heat in a fight?

Redo your math ... but this time start from 95% heat and see what happens with a 6 PPC boat that fires an alpha. Lots of times, players just panic ... they fired an alpha that puts them near the top then:

*OMG ATLAS IN MY FACE **** PRAY PRAY FOR HEADSHOT *** ALPHA AWAY ***"

That is the type of thing that is going to cause damage ... not starting from scratch and getting to 60ish then getting close to 120ish ... but more like just hit 90% / 95% and freak out and do a 70% Alpha.

The third alpha strike (And the point you would actually get to damage taking ranges) is already at, let's call it 92% for the 6 PPC and 102% for the 4 ER PPC math above:

(71.716/78 = 91.9% heat)
PPC: 71.716 - 4.071 * 4 + 44 = 99.432 heat (5.832 heat over 120% cap)

(79.716/78 = 102.2% heat)
ER PPC: 79.716 - 4.071 * 4 + 48 = 111.432 heat (17.832 heat over 120% cap)

The "panic scenario" you describe would result in the same 8-9 seconds of shutdown and about 6-8 damage to the CT internals of the 54 it has. The math above is presuming you are trying to jack up your heat as fast as possible via consecutive alphas as soon as they are available.

It takes 3 alphas to get to the damage point, and it is a trivial amount of 7 internal CT damage considering you dished out a max range of 120-180 damage during that time. You would have to "panic alpha" 7 times from a 90+% heat rating to kill yourself, presuming no other CT damage comes in.

[Corvus Antaka]

maybe 110% and more internal damage. a 6 ppc stalker should die after the second alpha that pushes it over 110% (x value)

[Caviel]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 02 July 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

maybe 110% and more internal damage. a 6 ppc stalker should die after the second alpha that pushes it over 110% (x value)

Even 110% heat is easily avoided by a 2-3 second pause between alphas.

I would see a PPC heat increase as being another part of the solution in line with these settings on the mechanics (And something lobbied for ad nausium already), although I wouldn't argue against a change of .01 damage per ton instead of .001, which just about doubles the damage per tick as well.

Currently it is not much of a deterrent at 7 CT damage vs 120-180 target damage, and even a heat increase would just result in 3 ER PC/5 PPC boat setups with similar results as we have now, minus the 10 damage off the top of the alpha, of course. That would also allow for another 1-2 DHS.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I personally thought it was a bit much. I run a Dual ER PPC Quickdraw with 16 DHS. The second I push into OH I am taking CT damage even though I have enough DHS to cool back down to under 70% before I can even get back from hitting override. Basicaly I run a fairly cool build that isn't a boat and STILL am taking damage.

Basically they need to remove the 20% threshold to start taking damage and instead focus on how long you stay at high heats.

[Corvus Antaka]

Viktor Drake, on 02 July 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

I personally thought it was a bit much. I run a Dual ER PPC Quickdraw with 16 DHS. The second I push into OH I am taking CT damage even though I have enough DHS to cool back down to under 70% before I can even get back from hitting override. Basicaly I run a fairly cool build that isn't a boat and STILL am taking damage.

Basically they need to remove the 20% threshold to start taking damage and instead focus on how long you stay at high heats.

imho this may be more down to the concern that external DHS have little value to keep you heat efficient. for now the best thing is to keep reporting stuff like THIS, because this is of much more concern that the 6 ppc/4 ppc stalker that could be killed in many ways as needed in the future.