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Support Wants Your Help ( And A Discussion About The Imapacts On Light-Hunting As A Tactic )


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#81 Doctor Proctor

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 06:48 PM

Personally, I play Mediums a lot, and I never hunted Lights and won't start after this patch. Why? Because the speed and mobility differential is ridiculously powerful. A Spider running at over 120kph is 30% faster than my Hunchback, and with JJ can turn on a dime or jump clear over my head. They hunt ME when there's an engagement and will frequently win because they can effortlessly get around my back side and drill my 16-20 points of back armor (I run about a 2:1 ratio of front to back armor) until I die, where as I will NEVER see their backside unless they overheat, engage another much or run away...which they have no reason to do since good Light pilots can massively outmaneuver most Mediums.

Another big problem with Light hunting is the extreme size differential between some of the Mediums and Lights. Even when I manage to get the drop on one or corner him, he can rush me head on and get UNDER my cockpit while still being able to fire on me. This makes Torso and Head weapons completely miss, and even Arm weapons almost impossible to aim since their so low on my screen that my mimi-map is blocking my view or I run out of arm movement range.

Until some of those advantages are reduced, Light hunting will be relegated to just the Not-Light chassis like the Cicada, or the Lights will just turn and engage the Medium with a very good chance of winning barring some lucky leg shots.

Edit: Note that all of this is presupposing a 1v1 between the Light and the Medium. If there's multiple mechs then the Light will either bug out using their speed, or face much tougher odds. However, now you have 2+ mechs, at least one of which is a Medium, fighting a single light. The rest of your company is now a man down, and that Light just isn't worth the reduced firepower.

Edited by Doctor Proctor, 03 July 2013 - 06:54 PM.


#82 Tekadept

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:04 PM

I run mediums and fast heavies, I generally won't hunt lights, I will just draw them into range of the PPC snipers who can obliterate him with 1 or 2 salvos rather then me wasting my firepower trying to wear him down. I focus my firepower on the other enemy mechs.

#83 jay35

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:17 PM

Here's my take on the new movement code:
  • Making inclines slow you down: Good
  • 45-degree arbitrary impassibility map-wide: Bad
  • Making steep slopes (i.e., mountain slopes and certain hills, but not little snow piles or small terrain features like small craters) impassable: Good (but currently everything beyond 45 degrees is impassable, which is Bad.)
In wanting to make terrain matter more, we've just gone a bit too far and made all terrain a straight-up obstacle in many places it has no business being an obstacle.

The issue is the 45-degree impassibility being laid over the entire map like a net such that anything and everything that happens to touch 45-degrees arbitrarily becomes an obstacle regardless of its height or how reasonable it is for it to be stopping mechs.

It's a frustrating mess to maneuver on certain parts of certain maps, and it makes not only the pilot feel incompetent but also at times leaves the player frustrated with the concept of movement in this game as a whole.

What we have a lot of on some of the maps, like Tourmaline and Frozen City, are terrain features - snow hills/piles, small craters, things intended to break up the uniformity of the terrain, to break up Line of Sight and serve to increase the three dimensional nature of the terrain - that shouldn't be stopping you from proceeding over them regardless of your mech class. Some of these are even in the midst of the intended lanes on the map and cause undo frustration and wasted time. These are things that should not be stopping mechs cold and inhibiting their movement completely. One can only imagine the impact on new players experiencing this in their first game.

Examples like the gentle craters on Tourmaline that happen to have a tiny bit of >45o slopes at their lips, and the snow mounds/small hills of snow on Frozen City amidst the buildings that break beyond 45o near their tops. They are simply in the midst of normal routes and paths and for a year or more now we've rightly held the expectation of being able to walk over them like a battlemech should. And forget about traversing the rock fields on Alpine, those are a mess too.

If that can be resolved, the gameplay will be much better for it.

I'm curious if adjusting the 45-degree angle up to 55-60 degrees might be the right solution, but also retain the ability to individually paint specific areas with an impassibility brush, such as the slopes of mountains on Alpine Peaks if they happen to be a bit less than 60 degrees.

This would help balance everything and make maneuvering a reasonable endeavor rather than a prime frustration. In FPS games, maneuvering should be focused on tactical movement, not getting stuck/unstuck. When it degenerates into the latter, there's a problem and it will have a negative overall impact on the game's fun factor.

Also, I find it funny that we are actually most concerned about small mechs being stopped by smaller rocks/obstacles, when quite naturally a smaller chassis with a smaller gait/step is going to be more easily stopped by a given obstacle than a much larger mech that could simply step over it.

If we are going to fix the annoyance found currently in things like rock fields and craters, I would certainly hope it is fixed for ALL mechs, not just some, and certainly not in an inaccurate way that gives an undue advantage to the class of mechs least physically able to actually step over such things.

Adjusting the current annoyances such that they are no longer impediments for light mechs is fine, but to do so while not also doing the same thing for all the other mechs would not only further imbalance the movement mechanics in favor of one class of mechs, it would also be the least logical way to address it when considering the physical attributes of each class of mechs - namely, which ones are most capable of stepping over a given obstacle.

Currently, I feel sorry for any mech larger than a medium that does not have jumpjets. It's a frustrating mess just trying to walk down some of the lanes, let alone engage in combat without arbitrarily being stopped mid-maneuver by all sorts of incongruous objects that should not be stopping you. It's not only just plain old bad gameplay experience, it's also often very illogical things that impede your movement. Perhaps this whole new movement archetype really ought to be relegated to hillsides and buildings where it belongs, for the sake of everyone's sanity. :)

Edited by jay35, 03 July 2013 - 09:29 PM.


#84 Zanotam

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:25 PM

As someone who mainly pilots Jenners and Dragons here is how I see things right now:


1. If you're not a light and you're not a cicada you're likely to be maxing at around 100pkh at best.

2. Even the best lights are maxing out at about 150kph

3. Heavies, mediums, and assaults all thus end up mostly in the 50-100 range with lights in the 100-150kph range.

Therefore, to make the system work out better the max speed allowed for mechs should be moved from 150kph to 200kph (not that they would hit that necessarily, but there would be a larger potential range), max engine size for mediums and Dragons (Maybe any 60 tonners, but maybe just the dragon) should be increased, and I'm not entirely sure what the calculation for max kph in terms of tons and engine size is, but the derivative in terms of engine size should be increased while perhaps the derivative in terms of tons decreased so that anything lighter than about 65tons will go faster than right now and those above 65 will go just as fast or slightly slower.


For me at least light hunting mostly has to do with speed and the hitbox of the light/scout/fast mech involved. A greater variation in speed means a faster response time for those who are supposed to counter and hunter lights while at the same time making light hunting more challenging and skill-based since hitting a moving target isn't too easy. With such a system a light which chooses the wrong route or makes a few bad moves will be more likely to be caught as faster mechs will be more likely to give chase in the first place, but a good light pilot would then be harder to easily alpha and take down when going pedal to the metal because they're even faster than before.


EDIT: If it's not obvious, I think the potential for the new code to make light hunting more meaningful is there, but at the moment the random sudden stops and other issues are making lights even easier hunting than normal by taking away their speed advantage.

Edited by Zanotam, 03 July 2013 - 09:26 PM.


#85 Seddrik

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:10 PM

Hunting lights is not that hard guys. I am a persistent light mech pilot, but also pilot othermechs. I always bring somethign do deal with lights. I will list a few (but not all) of the basic ways to handle it.

1. Seismic sensor. Easy.

2. Multiple streaks with a BAP (or switch ECM to counter) in case the little guy has ECM.

3. Shoot the legs... for some reaosn lights don't like that and often run away when you do.

4. Stay near teammates who can back you up, and be in comms with those teammates yelling at them to help you. So many do not stick with the team in this game, which as a light pilot, is like blood in the water for a shark... gonna get ya!

The main thing is getting the current movement shackle removed. As a pilot in general I hate it. But even as a light pilot I hate it because it makes everyone even more vulnerable and takes away the thrill & challenge of beating a bigger opponent. Everyone is gimped now...

Edited by Seddrik, 03 July 2013 - 11:13 PM.


#86 Brilig

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:16 PM

Wish the movement restrictions had been based on weight and not size. Lighter mechs could have used the buff. Especially Mediums.

#87 Victor Morson

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:20 AM

View PostSeddrik, on 03 July 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

Hunting lights is not that hard guys.

<Snipped: Good advice>


Everything about your post is fine, except for one minor thing: You've mistaken "Defending yourself against lights" with "Hunting lights."

You're literally arming anit-light weapons and trying to stay clustered in a group, shooting at legs when they come near. You're not actively seeking them out to destroy.

So basically I think you're misunderstanding what they are calling "Hunting lights (with bigger 'mechs)" because that.. that doesn't happen. Assaults can obliterate lights, but only if lights are pushing in on them. They can dictate if they fight in assault range or not.

PS: While there have been some misunderstandings and inaccuracies in this thread, it is refreshing to see way more thought put into the posts here - and way less trolls - than the other threads. I think that at least 90% of this thread would be absolutely great developer reading, and hope that this happens.

Edited by Victor Morson, 04 July 2013 - 01:22 AM.


#88 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:25 AM

Let's ignore for a moment that a Dual AC/40 or a Quad PPC to the whatever is likely to take a light out of commision anyway, so you don't really ened a light hunter:

The movement changes can't really do much, because fundamentally, everyone stops at 45°. The only value in going fast in the direction of the slope is if you're absolutely certain you can get over it. If not, you tried to escape into a wall, and unless you cross-classed your pilot with D&D Wizard and have the spell passwall, you're stuck, and the enemy catches up to you.

Even against a stationary target, the speed difference from running away is often not enough to avoid some nasty shots. What you really need is the ability to change your vector quickly, and to find some cover. Getting over a wall was a neat way to achieve this... But you can't anymore.

#89 Lazy Eye

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:33 PM

Some suggestions:

Fixing the 'light hunter' role
Fixing the role of light mechs

#90 PEEFsmash

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:41 PM

View PostLazy Eye, on 04 July 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:



These are poor suggestions and totally mischaracterize the role of lights. The role of lights is not to kill mediums. Killing isolated assaults/heavies yes, but mediums are supposed to be good at fighting lights, and right now, they typically are.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 04 July 2013 - 03:56 PM.


#91 WolvesX

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 04 July 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:


These are poor suggestions and totally mischaracterize the role of lights. The role of lights is not to kill mediums. Killing isolated assaults/heavies maybe, but mediums are supposed to be good at fighting lights, and right now, they typically are.

Very poor.

#92 Galen Crayn

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:46 PM

:) NOW we should help PGI as betatester, telling them every object in each map that stops a mech....

Muaahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody needs light hunters... For what? A stalker or atlas or any heavy mech can do that good enough... And why running after a light?

#93 Lazy Eye

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:15 PM

View PostPEEFsmash, on 04 July 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:


These are poor suggestions and totally mischaracterize the role of lights. The role of lights is not to kill mediums. Killing isolated assaults/heavies yes, but mediums are supposed to be good at fighting lights, and right now, they typically are.


Hang on, isn't the whole premise of this thread that mediums AREN'T good light hunters (people use heavies instead) and that's why they changed the movement code?

#94 Psikez

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:16 PM

Light hunting? that hasn't been much of a thing since the days of the streak cat and that was because you couldn't hit anything with any weapon besides the damn streak.

Ravens...I don't see much of them these days either...usually getting torn apart by Jenners

Edited by Psikez, 04 July 2013 - 04:17 PM.


#95 Sephlock

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:21 PM

Quote

Trying to nerf these people is pure and total madness. They're already among the very worst piloting ideas in the whole game and you will never, ever see it outside of the lowest brackets.
And yet we're getting that SSRM supernerf. Oh well.

#96 Victor Morson

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:30 PM

View PostLazy Eye, on 04 July 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Hang on, isn't the whole premise of this thread that mediums AREN'T good light hunters (people use heavies instead) and that's why they changed the movement code?


I have to admit that was painful to read.

I hate being right about the seeming out of touch balance changes.

Edited by Victor Morson, 04 July 2013 - 04:31 PM.


#97 Ralgas

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:49 PM

View PostLazy Eye, on 04 July 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:


Hang on, isn't the whole premise of this thread that mediums AREN'T good light hunters (people use heavies instead) and that's why they changed the movement code?


I believe assaults scaling near vertical inclines at full speed to get prime sniping positions as well as the "capsules" that define sizes allowing for eaiser stuck map debugging were in there as well

#98 WolvesX

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:51 PM

Also: Support Wants Your Help ( And A Discussion About The Imapacts On Light-Hunting As A Tactic )

#99 Drunk Canuck

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:25 PM

Canyon Network literally sucks complete nards if you aren't a poptart or if you lack a jump jet capable Mech, which means that players who are just running trials are not going to be able to play different types of roles because obviously, not every type of Mech has jump jets. Even Alpine can be brutal, and I love those maps. Even Caustic is asinine in terms of how much it grinds Mech's to a halt randomly because of some rock in the hill. I mean really, traversing most of the terrain should be possible for any Mech, getting up onto the crystals in Tourmaline or climbing walls should be impossible for everyone due to the sheer slope, it should slide a Mech off just due to the weight even if they jump jet up it, even a 20 ton Mech should not be able to stand on a slope that is 60-80 degrees in angle, which some of them have that high of a pitch.

The overall meta game is stupid right now. SRM's are weaksauce, LRM's are too CT focused, Streaks have no splash, boating isn't punished enough and it's making trying to do comp practices for us clan teams a complete pain in the rear end when no one is in the queue doing 8's because of how bad the meta game is. Light hunting is non existent when pug groups don't get the weight matching that competitive teams get. Trust me, doing LMS right now when you aren't doing sync drops with another team, you might as well not run light killers because other clans are just running pure cheese builds loaded with PPC's.

Brawling is also non existent unless you are doing sync drops with other teams, because pugs all just do what the pug meta is, LRM boating and PPC boating, however at least LRM's are pretty weak in competitive play in terms of damage per ton.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 04 July 2013 - 06:27 PM.


#100 Deathlike

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:31 PM

View PostWolvesX, on 04 July 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Imapacts


Imapacts indeed.





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