181 replies to this topic

[PEEFsmash]

Your first move should ALWAYS be to ask for help. If you personally can't hit lights when they circle strafe, this does NOT mean that lights are overpowered. This means that you need help from your fellow pilots. Post a thread that says, "I am finding light mech circle strafing hard to deal with. Can I get some advice?"

The biggest problem on these forums is that people (especially low and mid-level players) translate their personal difficulties DIRECTLY into "THIS THING IS IMBALANCED BECAUSE IT KILLED ME AND IDK WHAT TO DO [and I never cared to ask]."

What we really need is a forum where players of all skill levels and all experience levels can actively interact to improve eachother's game. Not just a forum for "New Player Help" but a forum for "ALL Player Help."

This would let legitimate balance discussion stay about legitimate balance issues that remain unsolved after everyone has discussed with each other and gotten advice from top players in the "Player Help" section. Translating your personal "pug-problems" directly into "FIX BALANCE ISSUE ASAP BECAUSE I DIED" is ruining these forums. There are legitimate balance issues that are being distracted from.

If you want help with something in the game, my inbox is open and I will personally help you. It will be better to see questions in my inbox than to see incorrect claims on the balance discussion forum.

EDIT: Some are misunderstanding me and thinking I'm claiming that there aren't balance problems. There are SERIOUS balance problems in this game. I have outlined them all elsewhere, and I will outline them here in this spoiler tag for reference:

Spoiler

Changes that the competitive community largely agrees on:

Hitboxes of many mechs are very “harmfully sized.” Some too large, some too small. Here are the basics there. Jenner CT and Dragon CT are way, way too big and cannot be protected. Cicada CT also cannot be protected. Catapult head is too big. On the other hand, Stalker CT is far too protected by the side torsos. Centurion CT is also too protected, but it can be a quirk for the Centurion which is the best (and basically only used) competitive Medium. Mediums in general are too large, the Quickdraw is too large. The Stalker is too small. Size of mech might not seem like a big problem, but it one of the most meaningful factors in the game. There is NO advantage to a part being large, it is pure disadvantage, and every mech with a large piece suffers from it, unless it is an arm or side torso that can protect a CT.

Lasers are the highest skill weapon that this game currently has due to the burn time and high heat. Comparatively, their reward is low. By lowering the heat or increasing the damage of lasers, lasers can be made to have a proper skill/reward ratio.

Streaks are totally dominant anti-light weapons, even to the highest level. This is wrong. The weapon is far too easy to use, its skill/reward ratio is totally out of wack. Making it hit all parts equally with no splash, just an overall softening weapon could work.

Brawling in general is underpowered. Buffing SRM damage to 2.5 and instating the above laser changes will balance the brawling/sniping game. Brawlers should be able to tonnage-effectively take out snipers once they close the range. Right now, snipers are as good at brawling as brawlers.
PPCs: Need some sort of nerf. Perhaps higher heat and a slower projectile.

Cone-of-fire: Almost no competitive players want cone of fire. Why? We want to aim for ourselves, we don’t want the game to aim for us. Put our shots where we point them.

What to do about sniping: Buffing brawling in the ways I suggested will extinct pure-sniper teams overnight. There will then be some sniping, but only as support that must be protected.

What to do about Mediums: Mediums are totally underpowered. One big problem is SRMs and lasers being too weak. No class is as dependent on SRMs and lasers. Also, mediums are too big. As I said before, this is a pure disadvantage. Mediums could use a speed/maneuverability boost. Right now, there are plenty of heavies and even an assault that can move at medium speed.

What to do about Lights: Lights are underpowered competitively because people have good aim. Lights can be taken to try to cap with, but leaving a heavy behind nullifies this. Lights are too weak, and although the average player has a hard time hitting them, top competitive players do not. Lights could also use a speed/maneuverability boost. Right now, you can have a top-level 8-man squad with no lights at all. You can use a base-defense heavy or fast medium.
What to do about Heavies: Nothing.
What to do about Assaults: Slow down their turn speed so they have some sort of vulnerability. Right now they really don’t, especially Highlanders. Highlanders might not be as dominant as Stalkers right now, but Highlanders can (and should) win a 1v1 vs any mech in the game, even when isolated against a light.

What to do about Seismic Sensor: Seismic Sensor has been ruinous. There are no surprises in this game anymore. It was another HARD nerf to brawling, because snipers can use seismic to make sure they aren’t being flanked, whereas they themselves can stand still and not even show up. Seismic should be either removed completely, or have its range reduced to 100 meters or less, just enough to “see” behind walls.

Jump-Jet Shake: There should be NO shake for light mechs. Lights never needed that nerf, and the shake has hurt them bad. It should be minor for Mediums. Heavies and assaults could well use some of the shake if you wanted to keep it.

These are the fixes that I take to be the most pressing ones to the competitive community. Note, we are fine with people alphaing all of their weapons. We are fine with perfect convergence. We are fine with AC20s. Many of the problems trumpeted on the forums are NOT problems within the competitive community that has found solutions.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 27 June 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[Peter2000]

Peef, I totally agree. However, history suggests your request for people not to ask for nerfs to anything they don't feel like countering (instead of things that lack a counter, or a viable use) is going to be in vain.

[One Medic Army]

Everyone should be required to play something for a few matches before they call it OP and ask for nerfs.
More if it's in a new weight class for them.

[Valore]

I'll point out something I mentioned in another thread.

It will be impossible to come to any sort of agreement when people have such divergent views on how forgiving the game should be.

Fun to some, will be completely anethema to others.

Some people KNOW exactly that running up to an entrenched position will get them killed.

Some may be scrubs who don't know any better. But there are others who are just not bothered because to them, tactics/planning etc are either:

1. Too hard to bother with while pugging. Which I think is fair.

2. Don't enjoy this aspect of the game and would rather push to get it changed than change the way they play. Otherwise they'll just quit.

Unfortunately, the end result is a giant Ultimate QQ Battle of Doom on this forums. So yeah. Not that simple.

Edited by Valore, 27 June 2013 - 03:48 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Valore, on 27 June 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

1. Too hard to bother with while pugging. Which I think is fair.

2. Don't enjoy this aspect of the game and would rather push to get it changed than change the way they play. Otherwise they'll just quit.

If you can't be bothered to improve your game, if you can't be bothered to find out counters to various strategies, you should NOT be posting in balance discussion, because you do not care about balance, you care about asking the devs to cater to your own poor play so you don't have to get better. That will never fly. Something is only imbalanced if it is overcentralizing or if there is no answer.

[w0rm]

One Medic Army, on 27 June 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Everyone should be required to play something for a few matches before they call it OP and ask for nerfs.
More if it's in a new weight class for them.

Indeed.

[One Medic Army]

To be fair, there are cases where something may be overpowered in PUG play while underpowered in competitive play, or have a different balance in skilled vs unskilled play.
It's actually possible to balance something to be viable but not overpowered at all levels of play, but it requires tweaking multiple variables at once and isn't easy.
From what I understand LoL occasionally tries to do this sort of balancing, not sure personally how effective it is.

[Valore]

PEEFsmash, on 27 June 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

If you can't be bothered to improve your game, if you can't be bothered to find out counters to various strategies, you should NOT be posting in balance discussion, because you do not care about balance, you care about asking the devs to cater to your own poor play so you don't have to get better. That will never fly. Something is only imbalanced if it is overcentralizing or if there is no answer.

Alright, let's take an example.

QQ = 'I die too fast, I hate getting oneshot.'

Our solution/answer = 'Don't expose yourself to sniper fire, flank, work the cover'

Their response = 'Yeah, but that's boring.'

Then what?


I think we need to accept that there's a big gap between what constitutes fun among the playerbase.

Some of us enjoy playing the meta. 8v8 poptart 732 battles for me were a thrill. For others, it was a giant snoozefest. I may feel differently to them thinking its boring, but it doesn't mean I can't understand why people felt that way.

Furthermore, you also forget, that some counters are not really viable in pug play.

I KNOW that the counter to a sniping team is to execute a flank move while they're under counterfire from my own team's snipers.

But to expect people to try to type instructions indicating who should go where in a PUG match, let alone expecting those instructions to be followed, is asking a little too much I think.

Edited by Valore, 27 June 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[HansBlix WMD]

Hi, I'm having the following problem, maybe you can help me.

In every match I play, the enemies have mechs with 4 or more ppc's, like stalkers. Whenever they catch a glimpse of my mech, they shoot me and pieces of my mech fall off. Some of the time my mech even falls over and splodifies. Can you help me with this problem?

[Varrin Coursca]

Thank the maker, someone finally said it. Thank you, peef.

Also, in before "Medium Lasers are OP."

[One Medic Army]

HansBlix WMD, on 27 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Hi, I'm having the following problem, maybe you can help me.

In every match I play, the enemies have mechs with 4 or more ppc's, like stalkers. Whenever they catch a glimpse of my mech, they shoot me and pieces of my mech fall off. Some of the time my mech even falls over and splodifies. Can you help me with this problem?

Solution: load up on PPCs/Gauss on a chassis like the Stalker, and do the same thing back at them.

That right there is what highlights the problem in this case, the accepted means to counter the tactic/behavior require either superior skill (shoot them, but better) or superior coordination (flank with multiple people, dogpile to overheat).

And yes, I've played a PPC stalker, I made one within a week after they came out, I'm allowed to b****.

[Peter2000]

One Medic Army, on 27 June 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

To be fair, there are cases where something may be overpowered in PUG play while underpowered in competitive play, or have a different balance in skilled vs unskilled play.
It's actually possible to balance something to be viable but not overpowered at all levels of play, but it requires tweaking multiple variables at once and isn't easy.
From what I understand LoL occasionally tries to do this sort of balancing, not sure personally how effective it is.

When they spend time on it, it actually works very well. One example was the Tyrndamere nerf. For those of you who don't know, this was a melee-carry champion. He could do incredible damage, but had to get close, and stay on your face. He could survive for a few seconds even when focused because his ultimate ability made him unkillable for a few seconds. Organized, skilled teams laughed, dropped some crowd-control or knock-back on him. Mid-to-low level PUG teams got absolutely wrecked. They tweaked his abilities and scaling somewhat so that he was more consistent at high level play, while not being quite as abusive to uncoordinated teams.

In MWO, LRMs are probably up for this sort of fix.

[Valore]

Neverfar, on 27 June 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

"I got mine. Don't talk about the game on this forum unless you're totally happy with it or if you want to toot your own horn about how special you are."

Got it.

Mate, peef is elitist, we get that. But the fact you've got time to stalk and bait him all the time isn't all that edifying either.

You two have different enough views you'll never agree. Might as well call it a day.

Edited by Valore, 27 June 2013 - 04:22 PM.

[Varrin Coursca]

HansBlix WMD, on 27 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Hi, I'm having the following problem, maybe you can help me. In every match I play, the enemies have mechs with 4 or more ppc's, like stalkers. Whenever they catch a glimpse of my mech, they shoot me and pieces of my mech fall off. Some of the time my mech even falls over and splodifies. Can you help me with this problem?

Thank you for posting your query in a calm, collected manner without any request to nerf or buff a weapons system or game mechanic, MechWarrior.

Most pilots would suggest finding and maneuvering in cover until you can get within 90 meters of the 'Mech. Then laugh as it overheats.

Alternatively, you could mount PPCs of your own in large quantities...

...oh, wait...that's how we got here in the first place...

[Ningyo]

They actually do have a forum for this its called Guides and Strategies (its not quite a ghost town)

It could use some more guides, and definitely people should at least look around or ask before saying something is OP. Or if they are good at problem solving figure out how to overcome it.

There are a few overpowered things in this game, and most of them have many threads with hundreds to thousands of replies. The majority of things people call overpowered are from lack of knowledge or skill however.



I should note the common Lights are overpowered threads are not true. I personally have a very hard time killing them, but I know why (I get 5-13 FPS and hitting them consistently at under 10 FPS is very hard : A hardware issue not a balance issue). If you looked for strategies on this people would say shoot at the legs, I suspect this is because your aiming reticle is focused on the ground only slightly further than them so when you lead them your weapons will converge and all hit them. Though asking a high quality player may give a more complete answer.


There are guides to how to avoid LRM damage if that is your problem. And if you ask a question someone very likely will answer it.

[HansBlix WMD]

Varrin Coursca, on 27 June 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Thank you for posting your query in a calm, collected manner without any request to nerf or buff a weapons system or game mechanic, MechWarrior.

Most pilots would suggest finding and maneuvering in cover until you can get within 90 meters of the 'Mech. Then laugh as it overheats.

Tried that, doesn't work. The only brawling setup that outdamages/pinpoints the PPC is the AC40, and I don't want to go to Hell.

Varrin Coursca, on 27 June 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Alternatively, you could mount PPCs of your own in large quantities...

...oh, wait...that's how we got here in the first place...

There's the honest answer.

[Valore]

Neverfar, on 27 June 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

The fundamental issue and what's wrong with the OP here the most is that his "I got mine" take on things will, in his own admission, not be to the liking of a lot of people, almost certainly a vast majority of the playerbase.

I get it. He's special and loves how things are so don't change anything unless the demigods of Competitive Gaming™ decree it is necessary.

That means a lot of people who might stroll in here and want to play a fun game (wierd concept to some people that fun can vary) may have an opinion on things and find something not so fun, then the Competitive Gamer™ will whine about the whining and demand silence because his Elo isn't high enough or some other Lord of the Flies nonsense.

Yeah, but then my question to you is this.

How far to we push to make the game more 'fun' before we look at it and go 'alright, that's too much'?

Walking out in the open SHOULD get you killed. Stupid decisions SHOULD be punished.

Convergence etc making the game a bit broken is a fair discussion. But some people honestly just QQ because like peef said, they want the game to play a certain way THEY consider fun. Which isn't the right approach either.

[Livewyr]

OP is bad

#MakeEloPublic

[stjobe]

The player that types off "Noob team" in chat before quitting the match (after having run off like an ***** and gotten himself killed) isn't likely to go to the forums and ask what he could do to improve his game.

I understand what you're trying to say PEEF, but the ones that would benefit from it are the least likely to follow your advice.

[PEEFsmash]

HansBlix WMD, on 27 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Hi, I'm having the following problem, maybe you can help me.

In every match I play, the enemies have mechs with 4 or more ppc's, like stalkers. Whenever they catch a glimpse of my mech, they shoot me and pieces of my mech fall off. Some of the time my mech even falls over and splodifies. Can you help me with this problem?

I think it's fair to say that sniping as it currently stands is overpowered. There is massive consensus on this point, especially if you look at top-tier team drop decks (all of which are stuffed with as many snipers as they can fit, and all of the players recognize that they are overpowered in the current metagame). It is a legitimate balance issue, and can be fixed by buffing brawlers (SRM damage up to 2.5, decreasing laser heat), and increasing PPC heat, and lowering assault mobility.