43 replies to this topic

[Alex Wolfe]

Mediums are there to attract fire from the whole enemy team while real mechs move into position. If you're lucky enough then maybe the enemy wastes a lot of ammo/generate a lot of heat prioritizing you right at the start, which means they won't have enough to finish off million billion assaults that invariably are the rest of your team.

Paint your paper-armored, slow, gigantic meatshield in bright colors for best effect, and go scatter beautifully in the wind.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 04 July 2013 - 02:25 AM.

[Leimrey]

Mediums have no purpose currently due to absence of tonnage restrictions per drop.

However, saying that mediums are worthless is r*tarded. Sure, you won't win a 1v1 close range fight against an assault or even a semi decent heavy, but mediums can carry a surprising amount of firepower, though they do require an XL engine to do so. Long range is trickier, since there are some mediums that are exceptionally good at it. The triple PPC 4P Hunchback is a prime example of this, followed by somewhat inferior gauss+ERPPC Blackjack or the double ERPPC blackjack jumper. These mediums are fast, have small profiles and have all of their weapons located in a single high mounted location. This means that all of their projectiles emanate basically from one point (this is where we remember why the 3PPC+gauss highlander is so dangerous - due to the fact that its 3PPCs and gauss are located very close together, reducing convergence problems to minimum and guaranteeing that all of the projectiles will hit the same location EVEN on a moving target that is being led). The high mounted weapons also give you the ability to "ridgehump" extremely well and the double ERPPC jumper blackjack can even poptart (which it's pretty good right now, because it has very small reticule shake, compared to the Highalnder or the Cataphract 3D). Of course, none of this guarantees that you're going to win in 1v1 shotoout against a PPC stalker, but you can be a major pain in the *** even with inferior firepower and armor.

If tonnage restrictions were in place, I think that mediums would have a very interesting role to fill: the role of fragile, but quite hard hitting long or close range mechs that are significantly lighter than heavies or assaults. Using mediums would allow drop commanders to significantly complement their team's firepower while saving overal team weight and possibly picking an extra assault instead of a heavy or just heavier assaults. We have been running long range mediums for quite some time now and matches where a triple PPC Hunchback is the mech with the highest damage output out of both teams team are quite frequent.


TL;DR: mediums are inferior to heavies and assaults and there's no real reason to pick them right now due to lack of tonnage restrictions, however, they will become very useful IF PGI gets its sh*t together and adds tonnage restrictions to at least 8man matches.

Something else I wanted to add: a "meta compliant" medium is better than a "non meta compliant" heavy in many cases. Seeing how many pub matches involve poorly configured heavies and mediums on both sides, one should not feel like he's gimping his team by bringing a properly outiftted medium to the team. Of course, this reasoning flies out of the windown when you're facing teams of 8 assaults, but such matches aren't as frequent as some people would want you to believe.

Edited by Leimrey, 04 July 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[zztophat]

I agree on the tonnage limitation front, those kinds of things are what keep a class like the medium viable, however another option is a cost.

With a "pauper" style of limitation, the lower cost of the medium over heavies and assaults and even some XL lights keeps them viable there too.

My hope is that at some point they implement either a tonnage limited ranked mode or a cost limited one. Tonnage forces teams to make interesting comps and cost forces players make interesting builds.

EDIT: Cost also becomes a huge factor when clan tech is implemented.

Edited by zztophat, 04 July 2013 - 03:32 AM.

[Leimrey]

zztophat, on 04 July 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

I agree on the tonnage limitation front, those kinds of things are what keep a class like the medium viable, however another option is a cost.

With a "pauper" style of limitation, the lower cost of the medium over heavies and assaults and even some XL lights keeps them viable there too.

My hope is that at some point they implement either a tonnage limited ranked mode or a cost limited one. Tonnage forces teams to make interesting comps and cost forces players make interesting builds.

EDIT: Cost also becomes a huge factor when clan tech is implemented.

Yes, clantech should allow us to create mediums that are fragile long or close range powerhouses. Things like Clan Endo, Clan Ferro, Clan ERPPCs and Clan Gauss should allow us to create mediums that will be extremely deadly in the direct fire support role and even the heaviest of assault mechs will need to be on their toes when facing them. Sure, they would pop even easier from assaults loaded with clantech, but with added weight restrictions, they would be invaluable as low weight hard hitting second line units.

Edited by Leimrey, 04 July 2013 - 03:55 AM.

[Hawks]

I haven't driven a medium for a while, apart from a brief spell with a BJ-3, which is the only mech I have ever sold before unlocking the efficiencies simply because it was so bad.

[Alistair Winter]

The last few days, I've been playing with my Centurion D, with 2 x AC2 and 2 x LRM5s. Sometimes I bring a TAG and small laser, sometimes I equip BAP instead. It has an alpha strike of 7 or 15 damage, depending on the range. A lot of people will laugh at a build like that, as it lacks GPS (gauss, ppcs and streaks), the current key to victory in this game. However, I find that I'm usually able to get between 1 and 3 kills, and I average about 300 damage when I'm not instakilled 30 seconds into the match. My KDR is currently 1.65, rapidly increasing. I do better than many people with assault mechs, despite having less than half their firepower.

There's only two problems with this inspiring tale of overcoming adversity (lulz):

1) What I can do with my nerfgun Centurion, I can do much better with heavier mechs. It's pointless to talk about my ability to reach the lofty heights of mediocrity with my medium mech, as long as I'm much better if you put me in a pimped Cataphract or Atlas.

2) In order to be effective with my nerfgun Centurion, I need to play smart. And when I say "play smart", I mean that I'm sacrificing teammates and being as egotistical as possible. Yes, I will leave you behind to die if I'm in danger. Yes, I will let you get ripped apart by enemy fire while I get into a safe position to snipe. No, I will not help defend base if it's being captured by a pack of skilled Raven 3L's, because my AC2s and LRM5's will barely ruffle their feathers. I help the team when it's in my own interest.

This is not entirely true. My conscience occassionaly gets the better of me, and I go follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade, only to be cut down by PPC fire. But my point is, if I wanted to be a major asset to my team, if I wanted to maximize our chances of winning, there's no way I would be using a medium mech, let alone a medium mech without GPS (see above).

TL;DR: Yes, you can do damage and get kills with a medium mech, with almost any weapon loadout. But anyone who claims they are as good as the meta-pimped heavy / assault mechs dominating this game, needs a reality check in the form of a slap.

[Para B]

I'm playing mediums 80% of my time in MW:O.

Why? Because it's a challenge and can be very rewarding.

Every n00b can buy a Stalker PPC boat and rack up kills, but it takes quite a bit of skill to do well in a balanced medium mech.

[ICEFANG13]

Steadfast, on 03 July 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

There is no value in bringing a medium to the field.
Everything a medium does can be done better by a heavy.
Everything.

Exactly, without tonnage or class limits or matchmaking balance for it, a medium will always be overall worse than a heavy. Right now a few survive due to hitboxes or hardpoints no other mech can do.

Ideally, since weight balancing of some sort makes sense, if you had, for example, this mech (and no, its not a great mech, its just for an example)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4f367b4473eab2b
You'd be fighting Cataphracts and Catapults and other Jagers. If you drop a couple Mediums you can go down a weight class
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...89800c40e334b36

Now the Cent is literally worse in every way (except medium mobility and hitbox), but when you bring the Cent, ideally, you'd fight another medium, or make the enemy team bring one for your teammates, while you get mostly the same mech.

Since they don't get another medium, you're better off with the Jager. Its true that almost every medium that has a heavy with the same hardpoints needed can be better done with the heavy.

[BillyM]

One thing frequently skipped over is that heavies generally have enough armor to risk an XL engine. Mediums are currently (1) 45-55pt alpha away from an XL death, and therefore risky/debilitating.

Mediums were once the money-makers. Put a financial buff back on mediums (lets try a 20% c-bill bonus for a patch-cycle) and watch them become the go-to grinders.

Green Mamba, on 03 July 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

Mediums can still get up hills

Centurions and Hunchbacks were thrown in the same slow-down-angle bracket as Jagers and Cataphracts

--billyM

Edited by BillyM, 04 July 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Alistair Winter, on 04 July 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

GPS

you forgot ac/20s

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 04 July 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Stoicblitzer, on 04 July 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

you forgot ac/20s

No, I just really wanted to use GPS as an acronym.

[Trauglodyte]

PEEFsmash, on 03 July 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

That is a Spider problem, not a light problem.

I don't often agree with PEEF, but when I do, I um, well I do. Spiders are the new Raven. I don't know what is up with that thing but short of a 4 PPC alpha or something similar, they just won't die.

[Fate 6]

Steadfast, on 03 July 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

There is no value in bringing a medium to the field.
Everything a medium does can be done better by a heavy.
Everything.

I used to disagree with this, but PGI keeps making it more and more true (the "hill movement tiers" is just the latest example of this)

[Coralld]

Its not that Lights are to fast, its that Heavies are to fast and are just as quick as Mediums when it comes to turning or torso twisting, same for Assaults in this regard. Now I know bigger engines not only increase your speed but also make it so that you turn and torso twist much faster, and then you have speed tweak. I say, make it so that Heavies and Assaults only get half of the "agility" bonus engines give so this way they don't turn or torso twist as fast. On top of that, possibly reduce the XL engine size Heavies and Assaults can use.

I am not bringing up the current high alpha meta because that's already talked about enough as it is and is a problem for EVERYONE, not just Mediums... Even though Mediums get screwed by it probably far more then any other Class.

[Sephlock]

zztophat, on 04 July 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

This only works to a point and only against certain heavies, Dragons and QDs can match, or run down many mediums even if they are running max engines and do so while carrying heavier armor and similar or great payloads.

In those situations, against a skilled pilot, running is still a good idea, but if you can't simply leave them in the dust try for a fighting retreat. Since I've adopted QDs myself I have often chased mediums around, without them being able to shake me and once I was unable to outrun an awesome in a hunchback, always a bad situation to be in. Be prepared to run and gun in those situations.

You're right, I should have specified: Run towards a teammate ;P.

Of course, you need at least a minimum of situational awareness to do this properly...

[MacKoga]

Yen Lo Wang is a pretty great mech, if your piloting style is compatible with it. Once SRMs are balanced to be appropriately great again, then many mediums will be back in the game. I can use a 4x6SRM highlander, but 3x6SRM just doesn't cut it on the cn9-A even when also packing an AC/10 and 2ML.

[PEEFsmash]

MacKoga, on 04 July 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

3x6SRM just doesn't cut it on the cn9-A even when also packing an AC/10 and 2ML.

I agreed with your post but...that build...that build would move at something like 65kph.

[ICEFANG13]

PEEFsmash, on 04 July 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

I agreed with your post but...that build...that build would move at something like 65kph.

Haha I just made it, best I could get was 71 XL 200, 4 tons for SRMs, and 2 for A/C-10

[SpiralRazor]

No point to mediums without tonnage drops restrictions....sad to say, but its true.

[Tor Gungnir]

Mediums are there so we can recommend the Hunchie to new players!