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Pgi. Don't Nerf. Buff (Counters), Ie. Minimum Range


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Poll: Read my post first please. Tweak/Introduce minimum effective range for (ER) PPC's? (13 member(s) have cast votes)

Should PGI Tweak/Introduce a minimum effective range for (ER) PPC's OR/AND buff short range counters?

  1. Only buff short range counters. Leave PPC's alone. (6 votes [46.15%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.15%

  2. Introduce/tweak minimum range for (ER) PPc's AND buff short range weapons (counters). (6 votes [46.15%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.15%

  3. Only introduce/tweak minimum effective range for (ER) PPC"s. Leave short range counters as they are. (1 votes [7.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

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#1 Inhibition

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:11 PM

Make the PPC a high risk high reward weapon. It is already a high reward weapon.

For example, boating PPC's amplifies its advantages and disadvantages.
A PPC's biggest disadvantage is its minimum range.
To encourage players to use strategy (counter), the minimum range of a PPC can be increased. The intention is to give PPC weapons, especially boaters, a high risk.

If the minimum range of PPC's were 180m, PPC's boaters would be ineffective/neutered
at hitting mechs at close range. ER PPC's could have a minimum range of 90m.
Effects:
-With minimum range of PPC's, there is now high risk. High risk is amplified with boating.
-This will make light mechs (close range) strong, natural counters against PPC's
because light mechs are harder to hit with PPC's.
-This will encourage people to prevent boating PPC's because of such ineffectivity
when engaged in close combat (similar to LRM's).
-Vulnerable to any brawler that can close distance to the PPC sniper quickly or flank at close
range
-Encourage people to carry back up/different weapons instead of another PPC (encourage
loadout variety)
-tweaked PPC min. effective range would encourage flanking/countering the PPC;
PPC is easier to be countered
-Discourage lighter mechs from carrying PPC's (because of ineffectivity
when faced with close ranged combat)
*180m might be draconian; just an illustrative value. Perhaps start at 130m first.

I'm fine with current meta. WAIT.
But I understand that other people are really frustrated.
These people cannot develop counters to the current meta.
That's okay, I've gone through the same phase, please read.

There will always be a "current meta". There will also
always be a superior weapon, and an inferior weapon.
People who are crying out for nerfing ppc's have to realize
that there will always be a superior build/weapon that
people will tend to use more often. The meta, and all meta's
now and in the future won't be solved by nerfing the
strongest build of a meta. In that path,
MWO will have nothing in the end; no variety.

In MWO, you want to advocate the use of strategy.
Buff counters to the current meta in a way that would not
break the (ER) PPC:

Heat on PPC's can just be raised, but it doesn't encourage strategy as
much as buffing a counter to the PPC user. (I want to put more power
to the counter, not less power to the PPC user.) That is true strategy.

For example, I can currently obliterate ppc boaters when I use builds with high speed,
high armor, fast hitting weapons, high heat efficiency, and high DPS builds. ie. Pulse lasers,
AC2's, and UAC5's. The current minimum range of PPC's is only 90m.

PPC boaters are slow. PPC boaters might have a ballistic, ie. AC20 or Gauss. I will
try to find an isolated boater, close in very close, and neuter it (by removing its ballistic FIRST).
PPC's generate way too much heat and recycle way too slowly to kill me rushing in QUICKLY
with high DPS and high armor.


To buff counters of SHORT RANGE WEAPONS (to create a more diverse meta):

- FLAMERS: Can easily power down energy boaters if buffed.
Remove the 90% heat infliction cap.
If I carry flamers, and I cannot cause my opponents heat to exceed 90%,
then why are my own flamers allowed to cause my heat to exceed 90% and overheat?

-LBX:
Tighten spread; make each pellet do 1.5 damage.
At close range, the LBX would cause devestation, but very ineffective at medium or long range.

-SRM's:
Introduce SRM"s with at least 2.0 damage. 2.5 would even work.
This will make PPC boaters cry if PPC minimum range can be tweaked.
*SRM's might be weak intentionally to allow for the introduction of Streak SRM6's.

-MACHINE GUNS:
Buff to 1.2-1.5 damage per second.

AC2:
-Reduce the generated by each shot by 1/2 or 1/3.

Conclusion:
Introduce/extend/tweak the minimum range on PPC/ER PPC's but leave everything else the same in order to make the PPC a high risk and high reward weapon. It will prevent
users from boating due to such multiplied high risk. In addition, buff counters to PPC boaters with short range weapons such as flamers heat infliction (don't buff flamer damage), machine guns, and LBX.

With all this said, I still think it would be best to FIRST fix elo matchmaking (even out skill level in matches) and add variety with game plays (respawning, similar tonnage drops) and private lobby. But I guess nothing that I say will make this a priority above weapons ...

With that said, alpha striking and convergence is not a problem in the slightest bit. They are elements of the Mechwarrior franchise for PC games.

Constructive feedback please. Only feedback that relates to the topic would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by Inhibition, 06 July 2013 - 10:12 PM.


#2 Kanatta Jing

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:28 PM

There is actually some good balance between LRM rain and sniper focused play right now. I will have to wait and see how things play out.

#3 Waking One

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:08 PM

Flamer cap needs to stay otherwise it's a stunlock weapon. bad bad bad stuff would happen with it. they do need to heat the enemy up a lot faster tho

i like the min range ideas tho

#4 mike29tw

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:34 PM

This is one of the better ideas that attack the problem itself rather than the strawman.

Also, consider making it a hard min-range, ie PPCs don't do damage under min-range.

#5 PanzerMagier

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:49 PM

Regular ppcs shouldn't do SQUAT under 90m. Er ppcs should have their heat brought up to 14.

Meta solved. Now if only I could find a dev to quickly make these easy number changes on the server.

that little change would have saved so much frustration these past 3 months. PGI probably would have more paying customers.

#6 Inhibition

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostWaking One, on 03 July 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Flamer cap needs to stay otherwise it's a stunlock weapon. bad bad bad stuff would happen with it. they do need to heat the enemy up a lot faster tho

i like the min range ideas tho


The heat cap is not fair though. It should be made that the person using the flamers can only reach 90% heat
cap. It doesn't make sense that can I continue to use a flamer and generate heat to myself while my opponent's
heat remains at 90%. At least make the heat cap equal for both user and person hit by the flamer.

In my opinion the stunlock is fine.

#7 TehSBGX

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:24 PM

Okay I mostly agree, but PPC projectile speed still need to be a little slower if snipers have to lead the target a bit more. Also with an increase to min range along with brawling weapons buffed, I Wouldn't have to worry when I brawl a Stalker.

Edited by TehSBGX, 06 July 2013 - 10:33 PM.


#8 Unbound Inferno

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:05 PM

Uh, no option for nerfing PPCs? I call foul.

Face it, the problem is with the PPC - but the heat fix isn't quite what you dismiss it as.

PPC heat at 10 effectively makes the 4x PPC builds harder to run. You can't boat more and limits both its max range and min fighting distance. The rest should be okay.

ERPPC heat to 15 effectively guarantees that no more than 3 can be used efficiently. It runs hotter than 4x PPC and ends up limiting that high end long-range sniping ability. Granted it doesn't stop the 3x ERPPC + Guass style, but that style now ends up with a serious drawback on overheating more. The solution is to limit it to 3x PPC + Gauss and that drastically cuts its longer range damage down by limiting its distance. That build also suffers from enough heat still it shouldn't be a frequent contender.

Not to mention obvious higher heat limits its effective use in combat all around. You've lost 27% of your ERPPC shots and 20% of the PPC shots off the bat that way.


PPC projectile speed arguments are perfectly valid, but I don't like it. Its a cohesive beam of energy, it should be fast.

#9 Skyefox

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:02 PM

I've been saying this since day one, high heat curves should be penalized. The higher your heat the slower your mech moves, torso twist, weapon convergence etc. This would still leave the first volley penalty free and you hurting, but at least now you have a chance to seek cover/return fire/react before the second volley hits you in the exact same place in 2 seconds.

#10 General Taskeen

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:34 AM

Regarding PPC min range idea: This makes minimum range even more huge so a 3-4 PPC wielding Awesome becomes double useless. Before thinking about any idea to a PPC, realize first what Mech is supposed to be using them to terrifying effect. The Awesome, however, is not terrifying.

No Mech game ever had minimum range. Its silly and not needed. I mean AC/20 does 20 damage in 90 meters, does that need a minimum range? If anything the game needs to have a fully functioning Field Inhibitor if minimum range is to remain on regular, none ER PPC's.





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