161 replies to this topic

[Villz]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 July 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

It's not random at all. I see this response a lot, and I don't quite understand it.

Random is when I shoot, the game decides where I hit.

What I am talking about is...right now, we aim, we shoot, all our weapons hit the exact same spot.

What I want is...when I put my reticle over someone it starts like this > <, not full convergence. And depending on conditions it will move towards >< which is pinpoint convergence.

If you keep your heat low, are fairly stationary and catch your target stationary you can pick your shot quickly and easily.

If you are running hot, on the move and your target is on the move, you have to keep your reticle on him longer to get that perfect shot.

That means more skill involved.

And if your reticle is like > < you still know where your shots will go. They just won't hit the exact same spot.

Once again, no random involved.

And this would fit more with how mech combat was described in various books.

I think DocBach and HomelessBill have other versions and this is just very basic.

oh if what you mean is having weapons offset firing positions with beams going forward always spaced apart how they were fired from the mech ( zero convergance) than i feel that punishes certain mech variants more than others. For eg the HGN-732 would be pretty much unaffected as the 3 ppc's are in the same side torso as the arm mounted gauss vs the Stalker which have its energy hardpoints spread out alot.

If what your talking about is delayed convergance as it was before. It basically means u cant play the game if u have latency as what you have to shoot at when u have ping is actually infront of what you want to hit. So the shots would be converging on differently to some1 without latency aka playing from toronto (server hosting location atm)

perhaps only making arm mounted weapons converge or arm actuators converge is an option but i truely dislike whenever variation is reduced. I fee a change like that would on'y narrow down more the list of competitively viable mechs which would be sad.

[FactorlanP]

What if there was NO convergence of weapons not mounted in the same section of the mech?

What if there was actually a HUD with 5 crosshairs? One for each arm, each side torso, and center torso.

If a pilot alphas, weapons in each location would hit different areas. It might be impossible to get all 5 cross hairs on target at the same time, so some elements of an alpha would miss.

A truly skilled pilot would chain fire and shift his aim point between trigger pulls.

The instant, perfect, pinpoint convergence is the problem.

I believe that it can be solved WITHOUT introducing ANY randomness.

Edited by FactorlanP, 04 July 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Villz]

FactorlanP, on 04 July 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

What id there was NO convergence of weapons not mounted in the same section of the mech?

What if there was actually a HUD with 5 crosshairs? One for each arm, each side torso, and center torso.

If a pilot alphas, weapons in each location would hit different areas. It might be impossible to get all 5 cross hairs on target at the same time, so some elements of an alpha would miss.

A truly skilled pilot would chain fire and shift his aim point between trigger pulls.

The instant, perfect, pinpoint convergence is the problem.

I believe that it can be solved WITHOUT introducing ANY randomness.

again would only reduce the list of mechs truely useable which is bad IMO

good example here.

Boomcat Dual ac-20 K2
vs
Jagerbomb Dual ac-20 jagermech

In your universe no1 runs jagers every1 runs cats. Crosshairs closer. So more ability to pinpoint the damage.

Jager's crosshairs outside extremities Arms
Cat's crosshairs both torso's (closer together by a lot)

Edited by Villz, 04 July 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[FactorlanP]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

again would only reduce the list of mechs truely useable which is bad IMO

Examples?

Reduce the list smaller than what we have now?

Edited by FactorlanP, 04 July 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Writhenn]

Fate 6, on 04 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

If you go back and look at my first reply to the thread you'd see I had every intention of having a real discussion here, but Villz has yet to give a real response to anyone who disagrees with him.

There is nothing to discuss, it doesn't matter if it's the hardcore or the casual players, the flow of communications between the developer and the community does not exist. We are all passionate about this game and seeing it turned into a head glitch/ppc abuse hurts players of all skill levels. Now if you want to jump down his throat because you two have history, take it to PM's.

[Rippthrough]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 July 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

So i'm not asking in an accusatory manner, I'm interested in what high end players are after?

The option to not be locked into a cookie cutter mech and weapon combo in order to play a competitive match.
Contrary to what many people dream up in their own heads, even if we're using PPC highlanders and the like, we don't actually have to like having to run them to be competitive.
Almost every player I've ever chatted to on TS would like to have the option to have most weapon systems and mechs viable, then they can rotate in and out when they fancy a change of pace or playstyle and still be competitive.

This notion (not from yourself, but it's evident from a few others in the thread) that somehow all high-elo players are just going to balance the game so that PPC's are even better and you can only run Stalkers and Highlanders is complete bull-****.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

MaddMaxx, on 04 July 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Just a couple issues with the OP.



Then this.




So the passionate are also a very impatient bunch as well? I think that sends a very poor and mixed message to the Dev team.

Louis Pasture was also passionate. Thank God he was not also as impatient as the TOP tier MechWarriors of today.

Where did he say that the most passionate people were the most competitive? You connected dots that didn't exist.

This thread doesn't pertain to you. It only affects the devs and skilled players. Troll somewhere else.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 July 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

So does this involve you guys trying to keep the current boating PPC meta, or fixing it?

Just because it's not very clear, and all the high end teams use it so much (I'm not sure whether it's because they enjoy it or feel it's necessary).

The fix isn't making PPC's not fun. The fix is making brawling more fun and effective so that it becomes a risk reward scenario.

The game needs more rock paper scissors.

[FactorlanP]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 04 July 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

This thread doesn't pertain to you. It only affects the devs and skilled players.

I hope you didn't intend to say that only the guys who compete in the leagues are "skilled".

There are quite a few of us not actively engaged in League play, who aren't total louts.

[Villz]

FactorlanP, on 04 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Examples?

Reduce the list smaller than what we have now?

also in the case of the meta shattering 3ppc gauss build.
Misery V 732 highlander

Highlander has gauss arm, 3ppc same side torso.

Misery has gauss chest and 4 energy points available with 2 on each arm so at best u could stack 2 ppc's on the same side (risk of torso gauss explosion taking out the ppc's 100% leaving u with 1 ontop of big side torso's and 1 ppc left in the opposite arm.

The highander in the case would be alot closer to pin point so you would AWAYS run a 732

[boomshekah]

RG Notch, on 04 July 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Must be my low Elo! I await the glory of the rapture when PGI finally listens to the Illuminati ! They are even offering to do it for free! How can PGI refuse such largess! How can the rest of you object! Help us High Elo Kenobi! You're our only hope!

Oh man, I'm literally in tears laughing...This is the funniest thing i have ever read on these forums. High Elo Kenobi, lol. Keep em comming:D.

[Villz]

FactorlanP, on 04 July 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

I hope you didn't intend to say that only the guys who compete in the leagues are "skilled".

There are quite a few of us not actively engaged in League play, who aren't total louts.

not at all.

However like i said you don't need to play in a tourney to be skilled just que up at peak times and drop 8's vs the good units. If you take some games they will notice.

boomshekah, on 04 July 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Oh man, I'm literally in tears laughing...This is the funniest thing i have ever read on these forums. High Elo Kenobi, lol. Keep em comming:D.

his alt account. Forget his password had to reset acct pass via email and relog into forums to +1 his own terrible joke.

Fail

Edited by Villz, 04 July 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Chavette]

TLBFestus, on 04 July 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

This is precisely why I have concerns over giving the "competitive" groups more influence, no disrespect intended but;

- you are a minority. Every competitive group could erase this game from their drives and the community and developers would not notice, and the financial "hit" on PGI would be negligible, minor at worst.

They are here because PGI specifically stated they are interested in making MWO an e-sport. You don't see farmville forums blowing up because it doesn't support competitiveness, it never was the plan. It was the plan here.

TLBFestus, on 04 July 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

- By definition, these groups are NOT representative of the user base. They have their own standards, positions, and game-play goals that in many ways are counter to the casual, or even the experienced, users that are the majority that play this game.

That is true, things like bad hit registration, invisible walls, bad terrain hitboxes etc interest them more than being shot with long ranged weapons because of not getting in cover. Just because they don't complain about a long range meta alot, doesn't mean they agree with it, and just because you could care less if every 10th shot registers doesn't mean you wouldn't benefit from it being fixed.
In short, the goal is common, a better game.

TLBFestus, on 04 July 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

- Being "competitive" doesn't make these groups smarter. More knowledgeable yes, but smarter or less prone to creating cheez, no.

Who said that? Making stuff up so you can disagree with something much?

TLBFestus, on 04 July 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

I think that they have these forums precisely to get feedback from the ENTIRE SPECTRUM of the user base, and to give the competitive minority undue input would be a mistake.

Thats true, so why are you trolling here, so part of the ENTIRE SPECTRUM can't communicate their needs/thoughts in peace?

Next batch of trolls? Fate6 you need something better against me, come on.

Edited by Chavette, 04 July 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Conraire]

Originally wasn't going to comment, but, what the hell. I have been a part of the competitive community for Mechwarrior in the Past. And I left it, because it's too much stress and importance to put on a computer game in ones life.. Was a member of the [ELH] in the grand council netmech league, and forgot what the Mercs league was, but Graysons Death Legion was the unit. Though I use to run under a different name back in those days.

Haven't done leagues since then. Because, I've chose not to.

The problem I have with the competitive community is they tend to be elitist and believe their opinions mean more than others. Now, this doesn't count for all members of that community of course.

I know my ELO is good enough, that even when solo dropping, I'll get dropped against 4 mans or sync drops, and even some times the pugs can still come out on top of that. And, it doesn't take a genius to play this game for an hour or two, and look and see what's wrong. I've got the point of frustration where I may log in a couple nights a week, and play as a pug or go do a premade drop on TS for a couple hours. Get Frustrated, and then not play for a day or a week, because they've continued to fail at actually fixing the problems with the game. And I've lost 99% of the unit I use to play with because of the lack of balance.

The truth is, there are simple solutions to fix some of the problems. But, with certain ideas people throw a fit, because it limits their perceived ability to customize the weapons on their mechs. Even though, it would only limit the ability to make specific problematic load outs. My counter to that of course, is the fact that we're piloting inner sphere, house variant mechs, that would have very limited customization ability to begin with. This would relate to limiting space available for each hardpoint type in a given limb/mech section.

They could use their brains, and go back to the TT 30pt heat table, and make heatsinks work like they're suppose to. But, PGI seems adamantly against this. Because apparently there's some fear of people boating small lasers at some time. Even though, it would literally make particular high alpha builds, impossible to play, because you'd either spend 90% of your game shut down. Or you'd blow yourself up with overheating.

They could even use real world household electrical wiring as an analogue to the way things would work in a mech. Where to run something like a PPC would require 2 energy hard points, outside of certain mechs, that were designed around them. This would be analogous to wiring 2 110v lines together at an outlet, to create a 220v outlet for larger appliances.

[Villz]

Their attempts to derail only feed the monster that is the view count and reply count on this thread and more exposure and visibility to the OP.

Outplayed dot com

[Whompity]

Rippthrough, on 04 July 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

The option to not be locked into a cookie cutter mech and weapon combo in order to play a competitive match.

Contrary to what many people dream up in their own heads, even if we're using PPC highlanders and the like, we don't actually have to like having to run them to be competitive.

Almost every player I've ever chatted to on TS would like to have the option to have most weapon systems and mechs viable, then they can rotate in and out when they fancy a change of pace or playstyle and still be competitive.

I don't think you're really any different than anyone else, on that front, which is good. We all want to see game balance lead to "many ways to win".

Quote

This notion (not from yourself, but it's evident from a few others in the thread) that somehow all high-elo players are just going to balance the game so that PPC's are even better and you can only run Stalkers and Highlanders is complete bull-****.

I didn't get that from them (us?) at all. I believe what they were saying is that "high level competitive" players run the same cheese as the rank and file, because it works. And if that is the case, it doesn't demonstrate a real desire to "fix" the game in any way, unless bumping the number of PPC-boats will somehow communicate that to PGI. And since they are running the same builds as everyone else and focusing on kills (to be competitive) instead of the other facets of the game, they aren't any more qualified to "help" PGI.

I think that's it, anyway. That's what I got out of it.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Ngamok, on 04 July 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Not me, because some of those guys stilla rgue to bring back the old Jump Jets with no shake. Sorry.

The current state of JJ makes it easy for the elite to jump snipe but the average player will struggle with it. You won't see it as often so you will ***** less even tho it doesn't affect my clans ability to jump snipe. By your standards that is mission accomplished I guess.

[Villz]

Hard point restrictions are an interesting way to balance mech's without limiting skill.

[FactorlanP]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

also in the case of the meta shattering 3ppc gauss build.
Misery V 732 highlander

Highlander has gauss arm, 3ppc same side torso.

Misery has gauss chest and 4 energy points available with 2 on each arm so at best u could stack 2 ppc's on the same side (risk of torso gauss explosion taking out the ppc's 100% leaving u with 1 ontop of big side torso's and 1 ppc left in the opposite arm.

The highander in the case would be alot closer to pin point so you would AWAYS run a 732

Maybe cases such as the 732 would need to be addressed individually.

I think it solves a lot of problems. Solves AC40s, solves most PPC stacking problems (save the one you mentioned), even addresses Splat cats (if they are ever viable again), gaussapults... Even prevents some future issues with AC60 builds and tri-Gauss builds.

If there are only a few cases, such as the 732, that need to be addressed individually, I think it would be well worth it.

Edited by FactorlanP, 04 July 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

RG Notch, on 04 July 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

Yes this thread is for the "elite" to show how elite they are and tell all the rest of us how it should be. Why don't the rest of you peasants pipe down while the "competitive" players "fix" the game for all of you unwashed masses. It's like you people think your opinions matter or that your money is worth the same as theirs. What's your Elo? How can you have a valid opinion if these folks can't see your Elo to see if it measures up?

I bet you think you know more about basketball than Michael Jordan.

[Villz]

FactorlanP, on 04 July 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Maybe cases such as the 732 would need to be addressed individually.

I think it solves a lot of problems. Solves AC40s, solves most PPC stacking problems (save the one you mentioned), even addresses Splat cats (if they are ever viable again), gaussapults... Even prevents some future issues with AC60 builds and tr-Gauss builds.

If there are only a few cases, such as the 732, that need to be addressed individually, I think it would be well worth it.

the new battle master is the exact same thing as the highlander with an emphasis on the other side of the mech exact same thing balistic arm 3 energy chest same side. your souution doesn't fix anything tbh just add's more complexity to an already complex game with no real gain.