22 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

Like Glazed armor and AP ammo.

I know they don't like indirect fire stuff.

[Gremlich Johns]

You need to really read up on everything about the Clans before you ask such questions. Indirect fire is okay and its use varies within the whole of the Clans. Frankly, anything Dark age and Jihad (glazed armor especially) is quatsch and should be ignored as canon, if nothing more for the way the Clans were discarded in the poorly written fiction. AP ammo, I assume you mean armour piercing, should be okay, but the velocities exhibited in MWO and the rest fo the canon is laughable. AP ammo is composed of special materials making it different from ball ammo and travels a tad faster.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 05 July 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Stormwolf]

Sephlock, on 05 July 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I know they don't like indirect fire stuff.

Not quite so, many light Clan mechs have TAG and NARC.
To top it off, the Clans have one of the most badass Arrow IV platforms:

http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29

[Gremlich Johns]

Stormwolf, on 05 July 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Not quite so, many light Clan mechs have TAG and NARC.
To top it off, the Clans have one of the most badass Arrow IV platforms:

http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29

AND LRMs have no minimum arming distance - so yeah, they like missiles.

[ValdnadHartagga]

I suppose it also depends on the timeline and the type of combat action (and the Clan itself).

For the most part, Clan 'Mech design philosophy tends toward high speed, high precision, and high damage (most early Clan 'Mechs are lightly armored for their weight class, though their Ferro is canonically much tougher) in order to participate in the most ideal form of combat, the efficient one-on-one Trial, which is conducted against another Clan. In the MechWarrior novel Roar of Honor this proves to be Clan Wolf's downfall, as the invading forces armed and supplied themselves for a quick decisive battle but instead got sucked into a drawn-out campaign by some scrappy Ghost Bears. The Wolves ended up running severely low on ammo and replacement parts. And, of course, there is the Grand Melee where all bets are off and anything goes.

Another case where "dishonorable" weaponry is justified is when employed against dishonorable enemies, such as pirates. Zellbrigen is not offered to those opponents, so Clanners are free to crush them by whatever means desired.

As time goes on, Clan forces are less and less likely to afford Zellbrigen to Inner Sphere combatants, and traditional tactics are employed (well, as much as they can before Warrior ego gets in the way). Once again citing the example of the Ghost Bears, who were using wingman formations during the Dark Age.

Here is an exhaustive list of the ammunition currently available in BattleTech: http://www.sarna.net...nate_Ammunition

Of those, the Clans are known to use Streak SRMs and LRMs, Swarm LRMs, and Anti-Radiation Missiles (probably Infernos as well), not to mention slug or shot rounds for LBX autocannons.

Most specialized bullet-type ammo comes from the autocannon-obsessed FedSuns, while the Capellan Confederation has a serious fetish for Arrow IV munitions.


As to armor, Glazed (Laser Reflective) Armor is in use by Clan Jade Falcon around the time of the FedCom Civil War. Clan Snow Raven developed Ferro-Lamellor Armor. Some examples of reactive and hardened armor were researched and/or lightly deployed by Clan Ghost Bear.

Edited by ValdnadHartagga, 05 July 2013 - 07:26 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Gremlich Johns, on 05 July 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

You need to really read up on everything about the Clans before you ask such questions. Indirect fire is okay and its use varies within the whole of the Clans. Frankly, anything Dark age and Jihad (glazed armor especially) is quatsch and should be ignored as canon, if nothing more for the way the Clans were discarded in the poorly written fiction. AP ammo, I assume you mean armour piercing, should be okay, but the velocities exhibited in MWO and the rest fo the canon is laughable. AP ammo is composed of special materials making it different from ball ammo and travels a tad faster.

Well, considering that the Jade Falcons liked Glazed Armor (that is, Laser-Reflective Armor) enough to copy it from the IS before the start of the FedCom Civil War (and thus long before the WoB Jihad), odds are most of the other Clans were okay with it.

[Sephlock]

Ah, thank you everyone. That was quite informative.

I'm kind of surprised about them being okay with TAG and Narc, though...

What about melee combat? Am I wrong on that too ? (I'm pretty sure they don't like it, Joanna's actions notwithstanding)

[Stormwolf]

Sephlock, on 05 July 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Ah, thank you everyone. That was quite informative.

I'm kind of surprised about them being okay with TAG and Narc, though...

What about melee combat? Am I wrong on that too ? (I'm pretty sure they don't like it, Joanna's actions notwithstanding)

It is considered distasteful, but not forbidden. Clans like the Nova Cats pride themselves into excelling with ER lasers, they even have competitions from time to time.

Newer Dark Age designs like the Jade Hawk even sport claws, so it's pretty much accepted by that point in the timeline.

[Adridos]

Stormwolf, on 06 July 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Newer Dark Age designs like the Jade Hawk even sport claws, so it's pretty much accepted by that point in the timeline.

Yeah, but that one's made by Jade Falcons who turned "bad" with the new leadership and decided to throw conventions out of the window. Clans closer to the homeworlds would still probably consider it dishonorable.

[Sephlock]

For those of you that are well versed in the later stories: How do they feel about mech tasers ;P? Those are sort of in a grey area, no?

[FireSlade]

Part of the stigma that comes with indirect weapon fire is that the Clans like to fight honor battles 1vs1 meaning that you had to declare your opponent and fight with no outside help. There have been many commanders that broke the 1vs1 as part of their strategy to throw the enemy into disarray but this carried a certain ***** to the victory. I am not 100% on the lore but I believe that during the Clan's invasion of the Innersphere that there was more indirect and teaming up due to the Innersphere's lack of understanding for Clan rules of warfare. Also the reason for the Clan's distaste of melee is because of the lack of skill needed to drive a part of your mech through the enemy's cockpit though it would make for a stupid pilot to give the advantage to the enemy by not using every tool at their disposal when the circumstances called for it. As for the high mobility of Clan mechs that is because their tactics revolve around high mobility and long range combat resulting in less waste of having to get chewed up trying to get into brawling ranges and keeping them in the fight longer.

[Lukoi Banacek]

FireSlade, on 06 July 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Part of the stigma that comes with indirect weapon fire is that the Clans like to fight honor battles 1vs1 meaning that you had to declare your opponent and fight with no outside help.

Indirect fire is not stigmatized (read the entire series on Aiden Pryde for an early, clear example of Clan Zell cultural norms and the use of LRM's even as early as Trials of Position to become Warriors), but getting help in any sort of Circle of Equals or honor duel is. Two different issues really.

[FireSlade]

Lukoi, on 07 July 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Indirect fire is not stigmatized (read the entire series on Aiden Pryde for an early, clear example of Clan Zell cultural norms and the use of LRM's even as early as Trials of Position to become Warriors), but getting help in any sort of Circle of Equals or honor duel is. Two different issues really.

LRMs are not necessarily an indirect weapon system otherwise why stuff two LRM20s on the Timberwolf. Funny that you bring up the Jade Phoenix Trilogy since I am reading it all over again. Also Aiden Pryde is a bad example of a Clan warrior since he himself failed his first trials and then poses as a freebirth to get a second chance two very dishonorable things. He also has a very unique way to look at things and thus thinks outside the box and comes up with very unorthodox tactics. In battles on the field Clan warriors declare their opponents (usually very informally, by shooting them first) and will stay 1vs1 per target until A: someone is defeated then they move on to the next opponent or B: someone breaks the rules of engagement and it becomes an anything goes battle. In the Trial of position things are a little different where they declare who is the target by making their mech do a form of hand signals and if anyone breaks the rules of engagement then it becomes a free for all (Aiden Pryde learned this the hard way). Trueborns will break the ROE if it suits them tactically but like I mentioned earlier there is a ***** to it that reflects on their Codex which is what determines if they can obtain a Bloodname and be accepted into the Gene pool. Obviously freeborns are a lot more lax in the ROE (even using contractions in speech) since they are constantly berated and though of as dishonorable animals. Basically what I am saying is it is rare to see two warriors of a Clan attacking a single target unless someone broke their ROE.

[Lukoi Banacek]

FireSlade, on 07 July 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

you're basically agreeing with me.

My point was simply that LRM's/IDF is not somehow a violation of honor. Getting assistance could be considered a violation of honor depending on circumstances.

And as I've noted repeatedly over at the Strana Mechty "Nook" site, what people commonly assume Zellbrigen to have meant in the books/game lore went away very early in the invasion as the Clans adapted to IS opponents who did not observe the same cultural norms.

On a side note, I'm also re-reading the books at this point. All of them from the very first through the end (all 96-ish novels). I'm on Blood of Heroes (a Death Legion novel) as of today. Fun to revisit this old pulp fiction as a counterpoint to all of these discussions and the new game he?

[FireSlade]

Lukoi, on 07 July 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

My point was simply that LRM's/IDF is not somehow a violation of honor. Getting assistance could be considered a violation of honor depending on circumstances.

And as I've noted repeatedly over at the Strana Mechty "Nook" site, what people commonly assume Zellbrigen to have meant in the books/game lore went away very early in the invasion as the Clans adapted to IS opponents who did not observe the same cultural norms.

On a side note, I'm also re-reading the books at this point. All of them from the very first through the end (all 96-ish novels). I'm on Blood of Heroes (a Death Legion novel) as of today. Fun to revisit this old pulp fiction as a counterpoint to all of these discussions and the new game he?

I Apologize for misunderstanding what you said in your earlier post. And yes it is fun to revisit the old lore and be re-immersed into the lore. Back in the 90s my first book was exodus road and since then I have been hooked. I am still trying to collect a lot of the books (non Darkage) which has been a real pain in the *** to do with so many of them being taken out of print. The Jade Phoenix Trilogy is the reason why I decided to go Clanner in MWO. I even want to follow the ROE during battles to try to bring alive what I have read in the novels, thought I am betting PGI makes that very difficult to do.

[Sephlock]

Lukoi, on 07 July 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

And as I've noted repeatedly over at the Strana Mechty "Nook" site, what people commonly assume Zellbrigen to have meant in the books/game lore went away very early in the invasion as the Clans adapted to IS opponents who did not observe the same cultural norms.

But what about the fluff that states that Precentor whats-his-face studied videos (or whatever) of the Clans in action and exploited their dumb honor code way of fighting at Tukayyid?
Wasn't it mostly the Wolves that were so adaptable?

Quote

On a side note, I'm also re-reading the books at this point. All of them from the very first through the end (all 96-ish novels). I'm on Blood of Heroes (a Death Legion novel) as of today. Fun to revisit this old pulp fiction as a counterpoint to all of these discussions and the new game he?

Holy poopypants, did they go crazy publishing books once the dark age/jihad hit, or did I miss out on a TON of books?

--

Also, why would they ever assume that the Inner Sphere warriors would adhere to some honor code they had never even heard of? Did they bombard worlds several weeks before invasion with little capsules containing the complete rules of Zellbrigen?

I'm imagining the Clanners stopping before a fight to explain the rules like a D&D nerd trying to teach a "normal person" how to play.

Edited by Sephlock, 07 July 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

As a point of clarification:

"Area [Effect] Weapons (as well as any system that requires multiple units to operate, such as TAG, C3, semi-guided LRMs and so on) by their nature violate Zellbrigen. No Clan warrior will use any area-effect weapon system or special munitions while fighting at Honor Levels 1, 2 or 3. Only at Honor Level 4, when dueling rules do not apply, will a Clan warrior use such systems."
(Total Warfare, pg. 275)

It's not that the Clans have an issue with indirect fire in and of itself, but they (generally) abhor systems like TAG and C3 (the type of systems that allow for more-effective spotting by a second unit, rather than "being one's own spotter") and AOE weapons (that is, artillery (Arrow IV missiles, Long Tom cannons, Thumper cannons, and Sniper cannons) and certain specific LRM alternate munitions).

There is also the distinction between Zell itself (the "honorable combat" rules) and Honor Level (which determines to what degree Zell is actually observed at any given time).

----------

Quote

Wasn't it mostly the Wolves that were so adaptable?

Clan Wolf is the Clans' Mary Sue faction (and is arguably even more of a Mary Sue faction than the FedSuns) - it's more okay for them to break the rules, especially when it helps them come out on top and look righteous (in both senses of the word) while doing it.

[B0oN]

+++Redacted for choosing wrong topic, derpness on my end+++

Direct-fire and zero safety distance on ClanLRM is just too sexy to not use it when walzing closerange.

AP ... sounds nice, but I rather have an ATM/"TacRac", plus what Gremlich said: speed is life, even and especially for projectile weaponry.

Glazed Armor ... too DarkAge for my taste, as thing were derp as hell there, plus : which PC would be able to stomach its proper computing ?

And nothing is wrong with the Naga, although most purebred Clanwarriors would rather drive Firemoths than this ^^

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 07 July 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[dal10]

Sephlock, on 06 July 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

For those of you that are well versed in the later stories: How do they feel about mech tasers ;P? Those are sort of in a grey area, no?

the clans do not have mech taser technology. they also do not have light autocannon tech (not that they really need it), snub nose ppcs(least they don't build them), ppc capacitors (really glad on this one...), variable speed pulse laser tech, MRM tech, the mrm apollo control system, c3i tech or boosted c3 or really anything besides basic c3 tech, Stealth armor of any kind besides maybe battle armor(clan honor crap).

so yeah, bit of a gray area,

also note that hardened armor may as well not exist for the clans, as none, and i mean NONE of their omnis can use it because it will not work on omnis.

Edited by dal10, 07 July 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

FireSlade, on 07 July 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

I am still trying to collect a lot of the books (non Darkage) which has been a real pain in the *** to do with so many of them being taken out of print.

Fireslade I feel ya on that one. I'm constantly on the lookout at local used bookstores for a copy to float in that I don't have (I carry the roster with me when I go book shopping...can't remember which I do have sometimes).

Sephlock, on 07 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Holy poopypants, did they go crazy publishing books once the dark age/jihad hit, or did I miss out on a TON of books?

http://en.wikipedia....ttleTech_novels

That's not a bad place to start. There are 65 that I've counted before you reach the 32nd century Dark Age ones.

This doesn't include any of the mini-fiction bits by Coleman, Stackpole etc.

Sephlock, on 07 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

But what about the fluff that states that Precentor whats-his-face studied videos (or whatever) of the Clans in action and exploited their dumb honor code way of fighting at Tukayyid?
Wasn't it mostly the Wolves that were so adaptable?

Precentor Anastasius Focht didn't exploit their honor code. He exploited their style of warfare. Quick fights that decided the matter were the Clan norm, in their efforts to husband all forms of resources (time, men, material). The Precentor realized that by drawing them out into longer, drawn out fights he could deplete their ammunition, resupply etc during each phase of the operation in each sector basically attriting them down on a grindstone of sorts. This form of sustainable, longer term warfare crippled CSJ, CJF because they relied on quick and overwhelming victory. He simply forced them to dull their blades on his grindstone.

Given that the ComGuards brought ~1300 Mechs vice the Clans' combined ~800 and that the ComGuards fought under a unified command, it was the best play. Additionally, it was secretly what the Warden ilKhan Kerensky wanted. He knew the other Clans, in their fervor to be "the best" and first to win would bid low on resources, would not cooperate and would not fight under a unified command unless forced to do so. This allowed him to let himself and the Wolves be outbid so they arrived to the battle late (a week or so).

Given they knew the IS strategy from watching their own game tapes, they discerned the ComStar strategy and came prepared logisitically. With this support, their technology and training edges won out in their sector. It very nearly did so again with CJF who were fought to essentially a draw.

Sephlock, on 07 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Also, why would they ever assume that the Inner Sphere warriors would adhere to some honor code they had never even heard of? Did they bombard worlds several weeks before invasion with little capsules containing the complete rules of Zellbrigen?

Leadership did not. For the Clanners who fought and grew up under their own isolated systems for over 300 years and who knows how many generations (especially given that sibko's were groomed every decade which is faster than a traditional generational system) they simply were not culturally expecting to meet people who did not know as they knew.

Westerners invading the Middle East in wars since....forever, continue to violate cultural norms there war after war and act stupified in the initial stages of those wars as well (how to deal with women, never pointing one's sole of the foot at someone, not understanding common tribal concepts to the region like Blood debts, soleysha payments for wrongful deaths etc).....and for the Clan fighters, it was their first time seeing IS cultures ever. They'd lost their history to time and the initial problems their own exodus suffered under. The IS was the boogeyman to them in many respects, much as the Clans were to IS who didn't understand the Clan behavior.

Strum Wealh, on 07 July 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

As a point of clarification:

"Area [Effect] Weapons (as well as any system that requires multiple units to operate, such as TAG, C3, semi-guided LRMs and so on) by their nature violate Zellbrigen. No Clan warrior will use any area-effect weapon system or special munitions while fighting at Honor Levels 1, 2 or 3. Only at Honor Level 4, when dueling rules do not apply, will a Clan warrior use such systems."
(Total Warfare, pg. 275)

There is also the distinction between Zell itself (the "honorable combat" rules) and Honor Level (which determines to what degree Zell is actually observed at any given time).

Honor levels existed in the TT alone, as a way to mitigate the overwhelming tech advantage of Clans on the map board. It's in no way representative of the canon lore of the novels outside of that and I doubt PGI does anything with that TT game system to limit Clans. I think they'll do it in completely different ways in an effort to keep the game somewhat balanced.

I'm not saying they'll succeed however.