20 replies to this topic

[Unbound Inferno]

A random thought occurred to me. What if we could set the maximum damage receive-able over time - if it can even be done.

Think of it for a second. The issue is alphastrike damage, DPS, what we get hit with all of a sudden.

We all - or most of us - want this to be back to a slugfest. So what if we set somehow the maximum amount of damage receive-able over a period of time on a per part basis. You could limit how long you can seriously think of living in a fight.

I have no clue what would be a good or fair setting, but if we just said that there was x amount of damage that can be taken over a period of time it would automatically set both what the highest alphastrike could be as well as the most DPS that can be taken. The slugfest would be back - as it wouldn't matter if you could boat 6x PPC is the most that'll matter is a 15 or 20 point alpha.

By setting each part of the mech to a certain level, you could determine the pace certain mechs are torn apart. Hulking walls like Atlas and Awesome could become tanks, while others are a bit more vulnerable like a Catapult or Stalker. You could also represent the level of protection and defenses each has by limiting how much each part can take.

It sets the pace of the game, and limits what can be done. Helps determine what mechs are tough and what weakpoints in a mech could be if one part like legs tends to take damage faster than say the arms.


Hardly a cannon approach to the problem, but a stray thought that could be used.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

DPS is the counter for high alpha. Your entire post makes no sense.

[Unbound Inferno]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 06 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

DPS is the counter for high alpha. Your entire post makes no sense.

No its not.

Damage Per Second is the alternative to an alphastrike of max damage at once.

The difference is between 20 damage up front or 20 damage over 5 seconds

[Odins Fist]

Maximum Damage receivable will now equal 10,000.

There, your problem is solved...

Move along, nothing here to see..!!!!

[Sasha Volkova]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA this thread is fun.

10 internetz to you OP.

Its like saying : ¨Dont worry little Ravens, you can safely run around in the middle of the enemy team again, since you can only take X amount of damage over any amount of time, even if they all hit you! REJOICE!!¨

Made me lol so hard I spat water everywhere.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Unbound Inferno, on 06 July 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

No its not.

Damage Per Second is the alternative to an alphastrike of max damage at once.

The difference is between 20 damage up front or 20 damage over 5 seconds

Bro you suffer from this. http://en.wikipedia....93Kruger_effect

In your OP you stated "The issue is alphastrike damage, DPS, what we get hit with all of a sudden."

Alpha damage is damaged applied instantly. DPS or Damage per second is how much damage you do over time. They aren't the same thing as you implied.

My comment was that DPS is the counter for Alpha damage is accurate. The advantage to run a high alpha build is to lower the exposure of your own mech. The enemy has less time to shoot back at you because you can expose yourself, fire, and return back into cover while your weapons reload.

High DPS on the other hand exposes your mech fully but should be much greater over time than a high alpha build. The problem is that they aren't much higher if anything at all than the high alpha weapons.

[Unbound Inferno]

0okami, on 06 July 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA this thread is fun.

10 internetz to you OP.

Its like saying : ¨Dont worry little Ravens, you can safely run around in the middle of the enemy team again, since you can only take X amount of damage over any amount of time, even if they all hit you! REJOICE!!¨

Made me lol so hard I spat water everywhere.

Glad I could entertain you.

Mongoose Trueborn, on 06 July 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Bro you suffer from this. http://en.wikipedia....93Kruger_effect

In your OP you stated "The issue is alphastrike damage, DPS, what we get hit with all of a sudden."

Alpha damage is damaged applied instantly. DPS or Damage per second is how much damage you do over time. They aren't the same thing as you implied.

My comment was that DPS is the counter for Alpha damage is accurate. The advantage to run a high alpha build is to lower the exposure of your own mech. The enemy has less time to shoot back at you because you can expose yourself, fire, and return back into cover while your weapons reload.

High DPS on the other hand exposes your mech fully but should be much greater over time than a high alpha build. The problem is that they aren't much higher if anything at all than the high alpha weapons.

Interesting. i consider myself usually the middle-average for players. Probably some higher than average gaming mechanic understanding, but not like I really think this'll be the right answer. You are taking me too seriously.


They are the same thing, if you limit them though.

20 points up front with a 5 second recharge, or 20 seconds over 5 seconds. In the course of 5 seconds 20 points of damage is applied. 40 over 10 seconds, 60 over 15.


Although you are right in the regards its an alternative to build something to. But ti doesn't mean the end result is that different on a limited scale.

In regards to the current meta however a high enough alpha kills you far faster than a comparable DPS. One of the many reasons PPC are at the top of the player's list.

But that is what we are suffering from, actually. The ability to alphastrike up front damage is far greater than any DPS can attain because that alphastrike will kill you before the DPS is done. The DPS is manageable as well through torso twisting and movement limiting its effectiveness as its spread across the mech and not pinpoint accurate.

So, alphastrikes rule over DPS. So to be honest, DPS isn't a counter at all. Its a failing trend that can't win in this game at the moment.

[Talrich]

Points to you for thinking outside the box, but I don't think it's feasible. For one, is that max damage per-attacker, or if five people are shooting you, is most of their damage being ignored? Does the ignored damage apply later, or is it gone?

As for a "limit damage" approach, I recommend the following instead: http://mwomercs.com/...ss/page__st__40

It moderates high alpha damage on the gun end, rather than the armor's end, so it doesn't run into multiple-attacker problems, though it wouldn't make mechs as survivable as your proposal.

[Unbound Inferno]

Talrich, on 06 July 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Points to you for thinking outside the box, but I don't think it's feasible. For one, is that max damage per-attacker, or if five people are shooting you, is most of their damage being ignored? Does the ignored damage apply later, or is it gone?

As for a "limit damage" approach, I recommend the following instead: http://mwomercs.com/...ss/page__st__40

It moderates high alpha damage on the gun end, rather than the armor's end, so it doesn't run into multiple-attacker problems, though it wouldn't make mechs as survivable as your proposal.

Well, if I were to take it seriously, max damage per part per player. Coordinated attacks should be devastating and thus still multiplied.

[LauLiao]

Why not just double armor again then?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 06 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

DPS is the counter for high alpha. Your entire post makes no sense.

This quote makes 0 sense.

DPS is just a way to figure out how much damage you are doing. And really has NO place in most PVP games, and especially not in MW:O where mechs have multiple spots to damage.

DPS is fine to measure when you have something like Brutallus from WoW and you have to know how much damage you need to output in a specific amount of time.

But even in PvE games as the fights became more sophisticated, DPS started to become less relevant, and really was just used as a way to measure your E-Peen. Situational awareness was more important, along with burst damage for specific dangerous points during a fight.

Speaking of burst damage, that is what MW:O is all about. And due to instant pinpoint convergence you can put that alpha strike of burst damage all into one place.

The only ways to fix that, is to create conditions where convergence is not instant or creating a situation where you can't alpha strike. There are a lot of ways to do this, and none of the good ways involve anything random, as some people will try to say.

LauLiao, on 06 July 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Why not just double armor again then?

That would be a cop out way to fix the current issues and in the long term doesn't address weapons and configurations from later in the time line.

[Unbound Inferno]

LauLiao, on 06 July 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Why not just double armor again then?

Different solution but it multiplies another problem.

By increasing armor to 3x or 4x you then end up still requiring the maximum amount of damage possible on that part. alphastrikes and ultimately boating would still be required to do well.

By maxing the damage recieved you end up limiting what boating can offer. So you can deal a 40 point damage hit? Only 20 counts for that recharge time essentially, so why do that? You might be inclined to load different weapons or figure out another way to maximize your build.


But don't take this too seriously. Its a fun idea, but it adds more problems than it solves honestly.

[Padic]

I had a similar thought...

Imagine setting the damage threshold to 25 points, and the timespan to be 0.5 seconds. If a single section takes more than 25 points of damage within the timespan of 0.5 seconds, extra damage gets distributed evenly to adjacent sections (instead of getting ignored, like the OP suggested).

Obviously, I made these numbers up, but I tried to pick reasonable, illustrative numbers.

This makes it harder/nearly impossible to one shot a fresh mech (which I don't think anyone enjoys), but makes it harder for a pilot to protect a heavily damaged section (because high alpha builds can just splash damage onto it, even if you have it shielded).

I think it would be a reasonably graceful change (along with fixed convergence for non-arm mounted weapons, which I would also like to see tested).

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Why does everyone have to find the absolutely most complicated way to do things?

What if two mechs alpha strike the same spot at the same time? What if three? What if four? What if twelve?

The problems in this game are simple to fix.

End instant convergence via one of the 5 or 6 great ideas that have been posted and fleshed out in this forum.

Lower the heat cap by about half and double dissipation to compensate.

Add movement penalties, torso twist penalties, convergence time penalties for staying hot.

Start damage from heat at 101%.

And then take a look at the game. I bet it gets a lot more interesting and introduces a lot more varied game play.

[Skunk Wolf]

Why not a shield mitigation effect like they have in Sins of a Solar Empire. Blair, Paul and them put that in to eliminate the focus click mechanic.

For those not in the know, shields gave a Damage Resistance that went up the more things that were shooting it. It maxed out at a certain point.

Example

Normal resistance: 2%
Ganked(Everybody focus firing on target) resistance: 40%+

But seriously, heat effects would fix everything.

Would that make this game more accessible?

No. It's been known from early in the franchise it will not.

$

Edited by Skunk Wolf, 06 July 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[Padic]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Why does everyone have to find the absolutely most complicated way to do things?

Those ideas, as you say, have been stated and restated time and time again. We're aware of them, PGI is aware of them. They don't need to keep getting repeated. This is a new idea, with little relation to the old ones.

Is it better? Who am I to say. Do we need to shout it down simply because it isn't the "double heat dissipation/ halve heat threshold" idea? No. No we do not.

[Unbound Inferno]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Why does everyone have to find the absolutely most complicated way to do things?

Because the obvious answer (returning PPC heat to 10 and ERPPC heat to 15) appears to be eluding them.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

What if two mechs alpha strike the same spot at the same time? What if three? What if four? What if twelve?

Mine would be calculated according to each player. The threshold would be like 20-25 per player. If two are attacking its 40-50.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

The problems in this game are simple to fix.

They are. I just like the... amplified solutions when I'm bored.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

End instant convergence via one of the 5 or 6 great ideas that have been posted and fleshed out in this forum.

I agree, again back to the first problem. Its simple and therefore elusive for PGI to find.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Lower the heat cap by about half and double dissipation to compensate.

Another viable answer, again same problem. Simple therefore elusive for PGI.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Add movement penalties, torso twist penalties, convergence time penalties for staying hot.

Wow, I'm starting to sound like a chorus. Simple therefore elusive for PGI. I should tag that in a quote or something, fits so many answers for questions.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Start damage from heat at 101%.

Wrong. Overheating at 100% shoudl be damage at 100%. Although 101% is a great step up from the 120% now.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

And then take a look at the game. I bet it gets a lot more interesting and introduces a lot more varied game play.

It would, a great many things could do that.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Easy way to fix alpha strike damage.....don't get hit by using cover or movement.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Viktor Drake, on 06 July 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Easy way to fix alpha strike damage.....don't get hit by using cover or movement.

Well shoot, if that's all it is, I guess you'd be ok with PGI introducing a weapon that kills you in one shot regardless of where it impacts?

Oh and it has the same velocity and range as an ER PPC.

Just dodge and use cover, right?

[James Warren]

Building on your idea, what if excessive damage had diminishing returns over a short period rather than being negated altogether.

For example, an alpha strike normally does 40 damage. Now the first 20 damage hits per usual, but the remaining 20 damage is halved, so the target receives only 30 damage. If the attacker waits half a second (or perhaps even less, if the game can process this accurately) between shots they will still deal the full 40 damage.

This would mean that alpha striking still has a place in the game, but wouldn't be as effective as sustained DPS since your weapons wouldn't be operating at 100% effectiveness.