268 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Fate 6, on 07 July 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

I do expect devs to have time to at least play their own game. Master it? Maybe not. Be unquestionably above-average? I think that's a reasonable expectation.

It's unrealistic to expect that of every dev. Many of those guys were, say, network programmers or texture artists. They're not going to need to understand everything about the game to do their job.

I do agree, however, that anyone responsible for balance should make a complete effort to play at least a few hours a week.

[kesuga7]

BillyM, on 06 July 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

just have last guys standing take each other out (okay maybe i wasn't the last guy standing )

dam is it cool doing that though
rarely happens but it did to me

yea there's no need to troll the dev's that bad tho :\ (they arn't THAT ignorant/uninformed/blind to whats happening to their game )

Edited by kesuga7, 07 July 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[Aaron45]

Victor Morson, on 07 July 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

It's unrealistic to expect that of every dev. Many of those guys were, say, network programmers or texture artists. They're not going to need to understand everything about the game to do their job.

I do agree, however, that anyone responsible for balance should make a complete effort to play at least a few hours a week.

Pretty much true. Paul is the guy whos balancing the weapons so he should spend alot more time (1 hour a day?) in game.

Did anyone see paul ingame (we all know he was on holiday for 4 weeks but did you see him before that in game?)

I do see often bombadil sean lang and garths

Edited by Legolaas, 07 July 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[Itsalrightwithme]

Legolaas, on 07 July 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Pretty much true. Paul is the guy whos balancing the weapons so he should spend alot more time (1 hour a day?) in game.

Did anyone see paul ingame (we all know he was on holiday for 4 weeks but did you see him before that in game?)

I do see often bombadil sean lang and garths

Out of curiosity I looked at Paul's LinkedIn profile (search for his name). Here is his list of previous games.

Quote

Previous:
Prototype
Scarface
FIFA99
Beetle Adventure Racing (N64)
Sled Storm (PS1)
Rock The Rink
NHL2001
Sled Storm (PS2)
SSX3
Marvel Nemesis PSP

Production support credit on Tiger Woods PSP, NFS Underground PSP, NBA Street PSP

Extra: Worked on concept proposal and prototype for Harry Potter (EA) presentation to Warner Bros. Design for common PSP components (EA).

He's definitely a gaming industry veteran with a lot of experience -- and I assume successes under his belt -- but I fear that MWO is the most complex game he has ever had to tackle: terms of variety of weapons, game mechanics, and features. MWO is also his first online multiplayer-only game.

When a designer deals only with internal testers, it's OK to rock the ship back-and-forth by large amplitudes in order to test different things. In an F2P in open beta, which let's be frank and call this effectively commercialized, it really hurts the player base when the designers change some things too quickly, and some other things too slowly.

Since it's already an F2P in OB, I suspect that at this time most BattleTech fans with a decent computer and internet connection has signed up for the game already. So when the game moves to actual release, we should expect to get many more players who are new to BT than actual BT fans. I sure hope that doesn't mean the game will turn more and more into COD, or that we will see more players playing MWO like they do COD. If PGI wants to retain the BT fan base, emphasis should be on the game mechanic that encourages more balanced play.

Edited by Itsalrightwithme, 08 July 2013 - 04:53 AM.

[Aaron45]

Itsalrightwithme, on 08 July 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

Out of curiosity I looked at Paul's LinkedIn profile (search for his name). Here is his list of previous games.

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He's definitely a gaming industry veteran with a lot of experience -- and I assume successes under his belt -- but I fear that MWO is the most complex game he has ever had to tackle: terms of variety of weapons, game mechanics, and features. MWO is also his first online multiplayer-only game.

When a designer deals only with internal testers, it's OK to rock the ship back-and-forth by large amplitudes in order to test different things. In an F2P in open beta, which let's be frank and call this effectively commercialized, it really hurts the player base when the designers change some things too quickly, and some other things too slowly.

Since it's already an F2P in OB, I suspect that at this time most BattleTech fans with a decent computer and internet connection has signed up for the game already. So when the game moves to actual release, we should expect to get many more players who are new to BT than actual BT fans. I sure hope that doesn't mean the game will turn more and more into COD, or that we will see more players playing MWO like they do COD. If PGI wants to retain the BT fan base, emphasis should be on the game mechanic that encourages more balanced play.

Thx for ya reaearch. And yeah i agree it hurts if they are a bit too slow and with their fixes

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Legolaas, on 06 July 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

i totally agree.

The sad thing is that the so called "Elite" players or what ever wanna tell us they are sooo good with their ppc /gauss build cuz they are soooo PRO. And we are just too silly to figure out that using ppc gives you a large benefit over your ennemies.

I dont wanna blame them for using the most effective build(s)- the thing is that those player tend to think at the end of the match that they are much better than ppl with balanced builds.

Had a PUG match the other day, 2 folks were playing together with having 6xPPC Stalkers. They obliterate an enemy.

Killed enemy: "They got me with their PPCs! So many!"

Stalker A's words: "And Stalker B told me "he's going to complain about it". I said 'maybe he won't be a ******'."


Yep, enemies are "faggots" for not liking 6 PPCs turned their way. Let's all play PPCWarrior.

Note: Map played was canyon network.

Edited by Ghost Rider LSOV, 08 July 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Legolaas, on 07 July 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

yep the guy you are quoting seems to be rude and arrogant in his tone

Then you caught on to the point of what I was getting at.

The tone on this board, primarily carried on by self entitled whiners that stomp their feet when things don't go their way, is getting old and tiresome. You created an entire post to bash a bunch of people that are working on a game that you're playing for free while you have no idea what they do or how important their role in said game developement happens to be.

[Aaron45]

Trauglodyte, on 08 July 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Then you caught on to the point of what I was getting at.

The tone on this board, primarily carried on by self entitled whiners that stomp their feet when things don't go their way, is getting old and tiresome. You created an entire post to bash a bunch of people that are working on a game that you're playing for free while you have no idea what they do or how important their role in said game developement happens to be.

You proofed again your rudeness. Congrats

[C E Dwyer]

Jabilo, on 06 July 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Normally I would agree with the sentiments of this thread.

However, Paul has already made a post saying that he has been on holiday, that changes have ALREADY been made to remedy the situation and that they simply need to be added to a build and pushed through the QA procedure.

On this basis you could demonstrate some patience and not be quite so harsh.

To counter, this is what has been said since the start of open beta, "we have a fix comming soon that should sort out balance issues" in one form or another which feels like it breaks more than it fixes.

Coupled with statements in twiter and facebook which have claimed we have the game pretty much where we want it, the fact that my thrustmaster hotas joystick, only functions properly in the game because a third party posted the code to use in the game files, and not any form of support from PGi and the fact full release is in sept, I think harsh is needed, or they'll think they have a classic when its more like a dog eared, sticky, STUFF mag.

People stay and pay because they want a game to play, despite of what PGI are doing rather than because

the only feeling of gratification I can feel towards PGi is with out this there isn't really an option other than to leave and hope there are still old friends that want to roll dice and push models around a map..
as the other electronic mainstream options are..far worse

[Bunko]

They say that all the time.

And to be fair, they don't have time to play real matches because they are busy making MWO GREAT.

[MaddMaxx]

I like these threads. It is, currently, an 11 page List of those who will never get an invite to any Test servers that PGI may open to the Public. And Yes, an Invite will be required.

[Little Nemo]

Nasty McBadman, on 06 July 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Well, did the PGI players use builds that were truer to the longstanding lore of battletech? Are "competitive" players using PPC boating as an "instant win" crutch rather than really attempting to challenge themselves by using balanced builds? Is abusing an imbalanced game mechanic actually helping with the beta phase of this game?

That's like saying Tyson should have challenged himself by not training before a fight.

[tenderloving]

MaddMaxx, on 08 July 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

I like these threads. It is, currently, an 11 page List of those who will never get an invite to any Test servers that PGI may open to the Public. And Yes, an Invite will be required.

Ignoring dissenting opinions isn't going to aid their data collection.

Nasty McBadman, on 06 July 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Well, did the PGI players use builds that were truer to the longstanding lore of battletech? Are "competitive" players using PPC boating as an "instant win" crutch rather than really attempting to challenge themselves by using balanced builds? Is abusing an imbalanced game mechanic actually helping with the beta phase of this game?

Players should not be expected to police themselves into creating balance. This is ridiculously naive.

[MaddMaxx]

tenderloving, on 08 July 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Ignoring dissenting opinions isn't going to aid their data collection.

Playing the game provides them with data to collect. Opinions are like arse-holes. Everyone has one. It doesn't mean one is superior to another, well save those who think their poop doesn't stink of course..

[superteds]

just killed one driving a c4 in a...spider 5v

maybe they get focused so hard they die before they can properly evaluate their own game

[MaddMaxx]

tenderloving, on 08 July 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Players should not be expected to police themselves into creating balance. This is ridiculously naive.

Players cannot be expected create anything but imbalance. As proved here, yet again, Players are very, very good at that. Sadly what they are not good, like any spoiled child, is holding their tongue, thus the creation of the term, "A child should be seen, not heard."

Players who think they know better than the Dev. That is also ridiculously naive.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 July 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[tenderloving]

MaddMaxx, on 08 July 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Playing the game provides them with data to collect. Opinions are like arse-holes. Everyone has one. It doesn't mean one is superior to another, well save those who think their poop doesn't stink of course..

Cutting off a population that plays the game differently than you want defeats the entire purpose of data collection. They don't need to test anything if they have already decided on how things will be. Preventing people from testing simply because they hurt your feelings isn't very professional and only strengthens charges of incompetence.

[tenderloving]

MaddMaxx, on 08 July 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Players cannot be expected create anything but imbalance. As proved here, yet again, Players are very, very good at that. Sadly what they are not good, like any spoiled child, is holding their tongue, thus the creation of the term, "A child should be seen, not heard."

Players who think they know better than the Dev. That is also ridiculously naive.

You must have a very short memory. There are multiple current examples: Going to Open Beta early, LRMageddon, CoolantGate. Instances where the players DID know better than the devs.

What exactly do you think the devs do that make them above the players? They are coders, skinners, artists, programmers. They aren't necessarily experts in game theory, nor do they have as much play time as the players (as evidenced by videos such as the one linked.)

What's naive is expecting people in a competitive environment to self-limit.

Quote

Players cannot be expected create anything but imbalance.

This is pure nonsense. It's like saying a football player has responsibility to make the game fair by not running as fast as he can. Players are expected to create only one thing: circumstances that make them the most likely victor. Balance is a concept that is completely outside of the player's power or responsibility.

No intelligent, rational actor is going to take steps that will decrease his chances of winning in a competitive environment. This is Game Theory 101, this is Economics 101, this is Biology 101, this is the basis for capitalism and the antagonizer that created socialism. This is COMMON ******* SENSE.

Edited by tenderloving, 08 July 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[xDeityx]

MaddMaxx, on 08 July 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Players who think they know better than the Dev. That is also ridiculously naive.

Just because someone has a job title doesn't mean they are good at it. THAT is ridiculously naive.

[3rdworld]

MaddMaxx, on 08 July 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

I like these threads. It is, currently, an 11 page List of those who will never get an invite to any Test servers that PGI may open to the Public. And Yes, an Invite will be required.

Why would I want to play test their broken junk? I get plenty of that on the live servers.