25 replies to this topic

[Otto Cannon]

Lordhammer, on 07 July 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Problem is faster the mech goes harder it would be for them to use group fires.(lights are especially nerfed that way).

But if the speed of the target affects convergence more than your own speed that works the other way around and lights get buffed.

Lordhammer, on 07 July 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Can you explain what part of my suggestion do you find lacking or disaggree? DocBach's suggestion has its own tread, i'd rather discuss positives and negatives of the topic's.

Sure. I'm not really keen on your system only applying to certain weapons, I think it's adding complexity and possibly would just make some weapons highly unpopular (AC2 & 5 for example), making lasers the standard dps choice instead. I don't really like the idea of non-canon minimum ranges for weapons either. I posted DocBach's thread because when I worked out the solution I thought was best personally I discovered that he'd already made a thread with an almost identical but more detailed plan.

[Baba Yogi]

Otto Cannon, on 07 July 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Sure. I'm not really keen on your system only applying to certain weapons, I think it's adding complexity and possibly would just make some weapons highly unpopular (AC2 & 5 for example), making lasers the standard dps choice instead. I don't really like the idea of non-canon minimum ranges for weapons either. I posted DocBach's thread because when I worked out the solution I thought was best personally I discovered that he'd already made a thread with an almost identical but more detailed plan.

Anything other than changing the heat system or nerfing certain weapons(basically just tweaking systems that are in the game but atm i dont see a fix by that road) will surely add some complexity but when i said a fix needed to be simple i wanted the system to be simple enough to understand at first sight. If you groupfire direct damage weaponry, you can only do pinpoint strike until 20 damage, above that you will fire in a random location in a cone of fire, representing inaccuracy, which will increase directly related to how high the alpha damage was. Now this is as simple a solution as i could come up with without changing the gameplay or introducing an entire mechanic.

For ac2/5s, ac5 is actually a very good weapon considering its high dps/moderate weight/minimal heat. When boated(x4) it makes top tier dps and you can keep it up for quite a while as long as target is within your sight. Lasers are very good but they always run hot and you have to retreat/enter dodge mode to cool down not to mention they damage all over the mech. Ac5s can go for very long without stopping and they do concentrated 20 damage at every shot, you only need to connect them to right spot. We do not see them often because alpha>dps and ppl just alpha once and run/get in cover/poptart not allowing time to dps(it is a tactical matter you need to force the fight against those builds). Now in canon both ac5 and ac2 has minimum ranges 3 and 4 respectively. Gauss has 2 as well.

Ac2 though needs to have a heat reduction buff i believe it runs too hot atm. (because high fire rate its 1 heat becomes 8 within same firing period of gauss). It was used mainly for anti air in TT, and was pretty ineffective against mechs. So i'd say pgi needs to make it a utility weapon (it works like that atm when boated enemy cant properly aim under fire) also i watch some video on youtube 5xac2 looked alot of fun to play with.

Edited by Lordhammer, 07 July 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Baba Yogi]

Livewyr, on 07 July 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

If a weapon is fine by itself, but overpowered en masse, then that is a problem.

Different aspects people don't often consider about weapon- what disadvantages does it have in mounting in the first place?

AC10, Weight, Size, Ammo. Can't boat because it's too large and heavy.
Gauss, Weight, Size, Ammo Can't boat because it's too large and far too heavy
AC20, Weight, SIZE, Ammo Can't boat because it's way too large and far too heavy.
PPC, Heat. (Well, at least it should be) Shouldn't be able to boat because it's too hot to use when boated. Right now, that is not the case, and therefore the PPC is NOT balanced...not even balanced before it leaves the Mechlab

ppc is balanced, if you do not believe me just make a 4 ppc stalker and alpha once and count how long it takes for it to drop to 0 heat. That is the real cooldown of weapon(not 4 seconds), heat cap allows you to alpha few more times as a freebie but he cannot keep up the dps. At that point he is rather ineffective. Also ppc's have minimum range where they deal increasingly less damage. As you see they have quite a few weakness but they usually do their job before you can capitalize on it(reason why i want to do something about alpha's rather than weapon itself).

Ballistics are heavier yes but you can keep firing them up because heat is not that unforgiving. They will always reliably deal their damage. But alpha>dps (dual ac20 and gauss are also labeled as boats btw). There is no king crab in the game so noone ever faced the terror that is ac40 in an std assault chassis WITH enough extra weight to support secondary weaponry. You can have 2ppc 2ac20 on that chasis, would you then think weapons are op or the way they deal every point of damage to single location?

Edited by Lordhammer, 07 July 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[Livewyr]

Lordhammer, on 07 July 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

ppc is balanced, if you do not believe me just make a 4 ppc stalker and alpha once and count how long it takes for it to drop to 0 heat. That is the real cooldown of weapon(not 4 seconds), heat cap allows you to alpha few more times as a freebie but he cannot keep up the dps. At that point he is rather ineffective. Also ppc's have minimum range where they deal increasingly less damage. As you see they have quite a few weakness but they usually do their job before you can capitalize on it(reason why i want to do something about alpha's rather than weapon itself).

Ballistics are heavier yes but you can keep firing them up because heat is not that unforgiving. They will always reliably deal their damage. But alpha>dps (dual ac20 and gauss are also labeled as boats btw). There is no king crab in the game so noone ever faced the terror that is ac40 in an std assault chassis WITH enough extra weight to support secondary weaponry. You can have 2ppc 2ac20 on that chasis, would you then think weapons are op or the way they deal every point of damage to single location?

I'll test the 4PPC stalker, if you test the 4 AC10 Jager..... or even a 2 AC10 Highlander, Victor, or Atlas..


(And btw: AC10s generate almost half the heat of PPCs...while being twice the size, weighting almost twice as much, and requiring (limited) ammo, that weighs more.)

[Storm Khan]

A possible fix for auto-cannons and high alphas in general could be as follows:

AC 2/5 - can stay same
UAC5 - can stay same mitigated by jamming
AC10 fires 2 x 5 pt rounds in rapid succession
AC20 fires 4 x 5 pt rounds in rapid succession

So unless your target is stationary or you are a really good target tracker, the high alpha AC 10/20s become less of a problem and more skill related.

[Baba Yogi]

Livewyr, on 07 July 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

I'll test the 4PPC stalker, if you test the 4 AC10 Jager..... or even a 2 AC10 Highlander, Victor, or Atlas..


(And btw: AC10s generate almost half the heat of PPCs...while being twice the size, weighting almost twice as much, and requiring (limited) ammo, that weighs more.)

Dude there is no 4xac10 in game, no mech has enough ballistic points. Build you suggest would also need 52 tons of weaponry at least of the 65 ton mech sigh....

ac10s are damn good imo with their cd reduction. I use one on my cn9-a it deals quite alot of dps for the cheap heat. I couldnt handle the heat if i used the same build but with single ppc on my cn9-al. Not to mention ac10 has no min range. Their damage might be same but they have different roles, not even the same category which you are trying to put them in.