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Combat Mechanic Poll


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Poll: Simulation of 'Mech weapons handling ability (56 member(s) have cast votes)

A 'Mech's ability to calculate physical weapons alignment aimpoints and a 'Mechs ability to actually physically align those weapons in order to hit what it's pilot is targeting and tracking with the reticule...

  1. Shouldn't be in the game (6 votes [10.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.71%

  2. Is irrelevant to the game (6 votes [10.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.71%

  3. should be in the game (25 votes [44.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.64%

  4. Practically IS the game (16 votes [28.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  5. Other (explain in thread) (3 votes [5.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.36%

Select the IDEAL position you wish was used, if you think 'mech weapons handling should be in the game

  1. all direct-fire weapon of like velocity fired at the same time hit the same exact spot; (no mech weps. handling simulation) (1 votes [1.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.79%

  2. Same as choice 1, except arms have their own tracking speed (how it is now) (16 votes [28.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  3. Any of the various "cone of fire" ideas put forth (20 votes [35.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.71%

  4. Convert the TT combat mechanic (minus everything that simulates mechwarrior skill) into realtime (8 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  5. other (explain in the thread) (6 votes [10.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.71%

  6. Shouldn't be in the game (for those who need to answer both to vote) (5 votes [8.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.93%

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#1 Pht

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 12:31 PM

Pretty straight forwards.

No, I'm not going to be modifying the poll; that would change it mid-stream and mess things up, so apologies for any omissions or errors in the poll.

Your votes can't be seen publically, and I won't change that, so vote freely.

Edited by Pht, 07 July 2013 - 12:50 PM.


#2 Pht

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 01:33 PM

Bump

#3 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 01:36 PM

My 2 cents:

Convergence mechanics in the game are an interesting thing. On the one hand, a 'mech automatically interprets point of aim from a cursor placed on an object, figures out the distance, works out windage and elevation, lines up one or more remotely located weapon systems to place a precise shot. On the other hand, it can't figure out lead on a moving target.

Arm mounted weapons typically are able to track wider angles and align to a target faster than torso-mounted weapons, which have a slight convergence lag to catch up to the arm cursor. Generally, this would seem advantageous for arm-mounted weapons. However, due to the wide spacing of the arms on some 'mechs, and the need to lead a target substantially with certain weapons, there is actually a tendency for the shots to line up at a closer or longer point than desired, and for the weapons on at least one of the arms to miss the intended target completely. By comparison, the more closely-spaced weapons on a 'mechs torso tend to require a less extreme angle to converge on a target, making them generally more accurate. 'Mechs with minimal arms or turret-like shoulder actuators also have an advantage in this regard.

So, the firing sequence is that a player spots a target, figures out the targets motion (if any) and chooses an aimpoint to make their weapon fire intersect the target at a desired point. From there, the 'mech itself takes over, working out the firing solution to place all of it's weapons fire on the indicated location.

So, we have the portions controlled by pilot skill
  • cursor placement
  • lead estimation
And the functions controlled by the Battlemech
  • rangefinding
  • elevation calculation
  • windage calculation
  • weapons convergence
In general, weapons convergence is instantaneous in MWO, excepting the delay for torso weapons to catch up to the arms.

One question, I think, is whether instantaneous convergence really rewards pilot skill to a greater degree than requiring a pilot to maintain an aimpoint and wait for convergence before firing.

The other question is whether allowing several similar weapons fired together in an "alpha strike" to perfectly converge on the same impact point is rewarding the pilot's skill in cursor placement and lead estimation, or whether it cheapens the skill-element compared with the need to fire similar or dissimilar weapons independently while trying to place their cursor in the correct location(s) hit the same target.

I believe that more player skill and premeditation is required in order to maintain aimpoint while lining up a shot, and that placing individual shots consistently is a greater challenge than firing once and expecting many weapons to hit the aimpoint with perfect precision.

#4 Pht

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 04:01 PM

Vote gathering-bump.

#5 Homeless Bill

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 04:08 PM

Shamelessly promoting my solution, but too lazy to paste a link. Click my signature.

Poll's first question is needlessly long and confusing. Poll's second question has vague and sometimes indistinguishable answers. I think you should re-word some things to get better feedback.

#6 Pht

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostHomeless Bill, on 09 July 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Shamelessly promoting my solution, but too lazy to paste a link. Click my signature.


Click left most link In my signature and realize that I have a post proposing a different fix than yours; and it was posted *before you even registered your current name on the forums.* :(

Quote

Poll's first question is needlessly long and confusing. Poll's second question has vague and sometimes indistinguishable answers.


They're not confusing. The grammar is quite clear and they are not very long sentences.

Quote

I think you should re-word some things to get better feedback.


View PostPht, on 07 July 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

No, I'm not going to be modifying the poll; that would change it mid-stream and mess things up, so apologies for any omissions or errors in the poll.

Edited by Pht, 09 July 2013 - 04:18 PM.


#7 Pht

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:26 PM

votebump

#8 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:48 PM

I don't really understand what you're asking or what the options mean.

#9 Pht

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:35 AM

In the shortest form, the first question is if the 'mechs weapons handling capabilites from the lore should be in the game

the second one is for how their capability to handle their weapons should be put into the game, if you think they should be in.

#10 Blue Footed Booby

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:06 AM

Quote

Convert the TT combat mechanic (minus everything that simulates mechwarrior skill) into realtime


You're going to have to lay this one out for me. Are you talking about using player skill for whether each shot hits, and randomly assigning where the shot hits, or is there some other mechanic I'm not aware of since I don't play TT?


Edit:
The first question isn't actually difficult to understand and there's nothing wrong with the grammar per se, but it could be clearer. The "finish the sentence" style of multiple choice question isn't as clear when the verb and subject are both in the choices. Just sayin'.

Edit 2: In case it wasn't clear, I'm just giving you a hard time about the wording. :V

Edited by Blue Footed Booby, 12 July 2013 - 11:24 AM.


#11 Pht

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:30 PM

View PostBlue Footed Booby, on 12 July 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:


You're going to have to lay this one out for me. Are you talking about using player skill for whether each shot hits, and randomly assigning where the shot hits, or is there some other mechanic I'm not aware of since I don't play TT?


It's "another mechanic," which isn't just in the TT. It's in all of the novels and the rest of the lore.

This other mechanic is ... the mech's ability to individually aim each of it's weapons (and they can); and the 'mechs ability to calculate where to physically aim the weapons based upon the inputs from it's pilot.

Quote

The first question isn't actually difficult to understand and there's nothing wrong with the grammar per se, but it could be clearer. The "finish the sentence" style of multiple choice question isn't as clear when the verb and subject are both in the choices. Just sayin'.

Edit 2: In case it wasn't clear, I'm just giving you a hard time about the wording. :V


That's fine. I couldn't think of another way to get all of the necessary info into the question in a shorter form.

#12 Pht

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:15 PM

bump for a bit more than a paltry 20 votes...

#13 1ceTr0n

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:05 AM

This isn't a damn simulator.

#14 blinkin

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:38 PM

View Post1ceTr0n, on 21 July 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

This isn't a damn simulator.

i wish it were more of a simulator but not the screwed up mess that Pht wants. he wants to replace aiming with dice rolls. all you would do is tell the mech generally what you want IT to kill.

#15 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:02 PM

View PostSolis Obscuri, on 07 July 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

My 2 cents:

Convergence mechanics in the game are an interesting thing. On the one hand, a 'mech automatically interprets point of aim from a cursor placed on an object, figures out the distance, works out windage and elevation, lines up one or more remotely located weapon systems to place a precise shot. On the other hand, it can't figure out lead on a moving target.

Arm mounted weapons typically are able to track wider angles and align to a target faster than torso-mounted weapons, which have a slight convergence lag to catch up to the arm cursor. Generally, this would seem advantageous for arm-mounted weapons. However, due to the wide spacing of the arms on some 'mechs, and the need to lead a target substantially with certain weapons, there is actually a tendency for the shots to line up at a closer or longer point than desired, and for the weapons on at least one of the arms to miss the intended target completely. By comparison, the more closely-spaced weapons on a 'mechs torso tend to require a less extreme angle to converge on a target, making them generally more accurate. 'Mechs with minimal arms or turret-like shoulder actuators also have an advantage in this regard.

So, the firing sequence is that a player spots a target, figures out the targets motion (if any) and chooses an aimpoint to make their weapon fire intersect the target at a desired point. From there, the 'mech itself takes over, working out the firing solution to place all of it's weapons fire on the indicated location.

So, we have the portions controlled by pilot skill
  • cursor placement
  • lead estimation
And the functions controlled by the Battlemech
  • rangefinding
  • elevation calculation
  • windage calculation
  • weapons convergence
In general, weapons convergence is instantaneous in MWO, excepting the delay for torso weapons to catch up to the arms.


One question, I think, is whether instantaneous convergence really rewards pilot skill to a greater degree than requiring a pilot to maintain an aimpoint and wait for convergence before firing.

The other question is whether allowing several similar weapons fired together in an "alpha strike" to perfectly converge on the same impact point is rewarding the pilot's skill in cursor placement and lead estimation, or whether it cheapens the skill-element compared with the need to fire similar or dissimilar weapons independently while trying to place their cursor in the correct location(s) hit the same target.

I believe that more player skill and premeditation is required in order to maintain aimpoint while lining up a shot, and that placing individual shots consistently is a greater challenge than firing once and expecting many weapons to hit the aimpoint with perfect precision.


good post Solis

This is the intended goal of the new heat penalties. There are still flaws to the system, but the new heat penalties have greatly assisted in achieving this exact goal - a pilot should be taking 3-4 shots with different groups in different timings finding his own style and build/pacing, rather than simply alpha striking 40 damage to 1 node over and over and insta gibbing the target.

the onus is on the defending pilot to create the circumstances of "cone of fire/convergence" through use of his mobility, jumpjets, positioning, etc.

ie currently in MWO ideal laser useage is like "find big, slow target, pinpoint lasers."

in order to pinpoint the CT on an atlas with a spider you however have a problem - you need to stay in the atlas field of view for the duration of your laser beam, to hit his CT. So, lights go after rear torsos instead. But the atlas twists and turns, thus the spider must manuever to keep hitting the location.

the faster the spider moves circling, the harder it is for him to direct his entire laser alpha to that 1 node.

defensive movements & positioning are a type of cone of fire already, torso twist to spread damage inbetween your own shots.

The biggest issue now is jumpjets in general, DFA/Collisions, and tonnage limits.

Once the field of 12 only has 3 or maybe 4 assaults, the entire battle dynamic will change. Assaults are the easiest mechs to core, and when everyone has assaults and assault firepower, pinpoint aim seems a serious problem. While pinpoint can 1-2 shot a light, an assault can be rapidly overwhelmed by 1 medium and a light for a 75 ton or 80 ton battle.

alpha strikes beyond same weapon types may yet need penalties to curb DPS, but so far ingame I see little evidence of this - until we see tonnage limits it is very tough to guess how the drops will run in the future - assaults and firepower coming down means every wieght class will have much more potential and be on the field of battle.

most of the features you guys want for convergence can be refined into the current game using heat and timing adjustments with more weapon tuning. your convergence ideas, while interesting, are a big rework from existing mechanics that will more likely take value from the ease of entry into the game for new players. 2 reticules and torso twist is already tough enough for many newbs, but at least it still sticks with core FPS mechanics making game entry easier for new players.

#16 Strum Wealh

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:40 PM

Personally, I would rather see arm-mounted weapons able to make use of non-instantaneous, range-based convergence adjustments, while torso-mounted weapons are fixed in position and harmonized to converge at a given range in the MechLab.

----------

Rather than have multiple crosshairs, all torso weapons could/would be locked in place (both horizontally and vertically) relative to the torso so that they converge on the reticle's center point at their max. effective/optimal range and diverge when passing beyond that point.

This is essentially how the wing-mounted guns on WWII military aircraft were set, in a process called "harmonization".
Posted Image
In this example, the red lines show the aircraft's guns when harmonized to a distance of ~200 meters, the green lines show the aircraft's guns when harmonized to a distance of ~800 meters, and the blue lines show that the aircraft's guns fire straight ahead in parallel paths and do not converge at all when unharmonized.

A far more detailed example, showing both the vertical and horizontal effects with a P-47 Thunderbolt, can be seen here:
Posted Image

For a MWO-based example, twin torso-mounted PPCs (as found on the stock AWS-8Q, for instance) would default to converging to a single point at 540 meters, with the impact points diverging as one moves away from that point (either toward or away from the firing unit).
Likewise, twin torso-mounted Medium Lasers (such as seen on the stock AS7-D, SDR-5V, CN9-A, CTF-3D, and others) would default to converging to a single point at 270 meters, with the impact points diverging as one moves away from that point (either toward or away from the firing unit).

In the case of non-twinned weapons (e.g. a Large Laser in one side-torso and an ER Large Laser in the other side-torso), each weapon would default to converging with the line-of-sight through the center of the torso reticle at its respective effective/optimal range (540 meters for the LL and 675 meters for the ERLL).

By contrast, arm-mounted weapons would still be able to (non-instantaneously) adjust themselves vertically (assuming an undamaged Upper Arm Actuator is present in the arm(s) in question) and horizontally (assuming an undamaged Lower Arm Actuator is present in the arm(s) in question).

For the harmonization scheme to have any real meaning, it would have to be something that is set in the 'Mech Lab & immutable from the cockpit - it should not be able to be changed at all during a match.

----------

One of the advantages to overall gameplay is that it restricts the vast majority of "high alpha boats" - particularly those that carry their heaviest weapons in the torso sections, or arms that lack the Lower Arm Actuator - to a very narrow "range envelope" wherein they can deliver maximized pinpoint damage; as the target moves outside of that envelope in either direction (that is, either getting further away or getting closer), the contact points increasingly diverge and the damage is increasingly spread across the target.

Those 'Mechs that carry the bulk (if not the totality) of their direct-fire weapons in fully-actuated arms (or at least, arms that only lack hands) - such as the CTF-4X, the Heavy Metal, the AS7-RS, the HBK-4SP, the TBT-5J, the Death's Knell, and the SDR-5K... and later 'Mechs like the primary variant of the Black Hawk (and, hopefully, the MAD-3R :D) - would enjoy an advantage in both the ability to track faster targets & the ability to concentrate damage at variable ranges (which, after all, is a large part of the actuated arms' reason for existing in the first place, and why they sacrifice the volume (critical spaces) that would otherwise be devoted to additional weaponry or equipment), though that advantage would/should be tempered by the non-instantaneous nature of the proposed convergence mechanic.

(Incidentally, it should be noted that each of the Loki Prime, the Thor Prime, the Man o' War Prime, the Masakari Prime, and the Daishi Prime lack Lower Arm Actuators in both arms (no arm swing or separate lateral tracking for them, even under PGI's current system! ^_^) while the Gladiator Prime has one arm (Right Arm) with a full set of actuators and one arm (Left Arm) lacking both a Hand Actuator and a Lower Arm actuator (much like a mirrored version of both the Victor and the Highlander - each of which has an arm swing range of only 20 degrees).)

My proposed convergence & harmonization system also gives the eventually-to-be-introduced Targeting Computer a greater raison d'être - installing one (at the cost of tonnage and critical spaces; "Clan Targeting Computers weigh one ton and occupy one critical slot for every five tons of equipment they control (rounded up), while a comparable Inner Sphere version weighs one ton and occupies one critical slot for every four tons it controls (also rounded up).") could grant a small boost to the arm's tracking and convergence speeds as well as allowing torso-mounted direct-fire weapons to use non-instantaneous, range-based convergence.

Thoughts?

#17 Mackman

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:20 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 21 July 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

[Fixed convergence stuff]


I'd rather see this than any sort of "Hey mech, I want to shoot this target: Do what you can to make that happen!"

And to the inevitable question from Pht as to "Why are you here then, if you don't want to simulate that aspect of a Mechwarrior from the novels?":

I'm here for the "AAA shooter experience" and the "thinking person's shooter" that MWO advertises itself as. The term "shooter," in particular, carries with it some very specific implications, beginning with the implication that you are the one doing the shooting: Not the one telling something else to do the shooting for you.

That game that you want is an entirely different game than the one that PGI set out to make, and it's an entirely different game than the one PGI is currently intent on making. At no point in the history of MWO was it ever going to be the game you want it to be. Don't act as though we are somehow the interlopers ruining your MW experience (except for 3PV, I'll give you that): You're the one trying to fundamentally change everything about an already established game, in a way that clearly doesn't fit the devs' vision.

Edited by Mackman, 21 July 2013 - 06:20 PM.


#18 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:11 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 21 July 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Thoughts?


I always liked this idea. I just don't see it as a valuable addition to gameplay that would be worth integrating. mechs would need optimal range for convergence to work on torso mounted guns, while mechs like the Heavy metal would completely surpass them being viable at any range with all primary guns arm mounted.

#19 blinkin

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:55 PM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 21 July 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

I always liked this idea. I just don't see it as a valuable addition to gameplay that would be worth integrating. mechs would need optimal range for convergence to work on torso mounted guns, while mechs like the Heavy metal would completely surpass them being viable at any range with all primary guns arm mounted.

but the risk with arm mounted guns is that they are inherently much easier to lose than torso mounted weapons. i think the game is already balanced for that sort of system.

#20 Pht

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 03:45 PM

View Postblinkin, on 21 July 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

i wish it were more of a simulator but not the screwed up mess that Pht wants. he wants to replace aiming with dice rolls. all you would do is tell the mech generally what you want IT to kill.


Lies.

Blinkin is, I guess, still mad at me for agreeing with him and than daring to ask him to do what he said should be done in HRR insanity's thread, so now he follows me around the forums doing this sort of thing.

I guess some people don't know how to let go of a grudge.





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