31 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

As far as Battletech goes, there are two groups of Unseen.

1.) The ones that came from Macross, which the litigatious Harmony Gold gots its fist on. Unfortunately that's where the Warhammer falls into, as well as the Marauder.

2.) The ones that comes from any other anime, and which Harmony Gold doesn't have their paws on. Nonetheless FASA took them off to avoid any potential and imagined conflict.

What we are seeing from Project Phoenix belongs to the second group. The Locust comes from Crusher Joe, the last English translation was distributed by the defunct Animego, while the rest --- the Battlemaster, Shadowhawk, the Thunderbolt --- comes from an anime called Fang of the Sun Dougram. In fact the original Shadowhawk is the Dougram itself. In this case, the Japanese creators don't seem to mind, as long as the new designs don't copy theirs. If you notice, mechs from these series typically have gun or missile packs over their shoulders.

There are four other Unseen in Battletech connected to Dougram. Two of them are quads, the Goliath and the Scorpion. Due to technical reasons, we are unlikely to see these on MWO.

The other two are more important because they are among the common grunts in Battletech. One is the Griffin and the other is the Wolverine. Both are 55 ton medium mechs though, and bears some functional repetition to the Shadowhawk. If ever more Reseens are to appear in MWO, these are probably the last two we might see.

Edited by Anjian, 03 July 2013 - 10:10 PM.

[Tennex]

yeah all the macross ones are off the table.

that means archer, marauder etc etc

[One Medic Army]

Tennex, on 03 July 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

yeah all the macross ones are off the table.

that means archer, marauder etc etc

If we ever get user customizable nose-art mine is going to be a Veritech in it's incarnation as a Phoenix Hawk with the caption: "F*** you Harmony Gold". Extra points if I can find a picture with said mech giving half a peace sign.

[edit] Apparently describing the above gesture using "bird" and "flip" is censored?

Edited by One Medic Army, 03 July 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[Nauht]

Tennex, on 03 July 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

yeah all the macross ones are off the table.

that means archer, marauder etc etc

Never say never and even Russ said that it's unlikely but won't rule it out.

The problem is HG being aggressively litigious and PGI scared of a legal battle, most probably cos of the bills or most probable settlement payout. Most actions result in settlement and only a few will go to trial - and settlement is where the money is.

If it ever came down to it HG will be trying to convince the court that what PGI does is a ripoff of their IP in design.

Looking at the reseen marauder I'd say PGI have a pretty strong case to argue that the reseen art looks nothing like the original art - and HG do not have the rights to the name "Marauder". There are tons of mechs with cannons protruding on their shoulders and dropped arms and chicken legs in the BT universe
What's more tricky is the Warhammer. That one is tricky cos you can only do humanoid, barrel arms, missile pack on the shoulder so many times.

Either way it's not worth PGI's time and effort to prove any of this if HG commences action. HG would most probably be aiming for a settlement sum anyway. If it actually goes before a court both companies will lose money and PGI doesnt want that.

That's all supposition though with my IP lawyer hat on.

[Enervation]

As much as i would love to see the unseen beasts themselves, i am damn happy with the four we are going to get.
And like the OP says, the wolverine and griffin are vague hard point variations- all of them have run of the mill weaponry (even for TT rules, let alone online play), 86kph run speed and jump jets.

[One Medic Army]

Enervation, on 03 July 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

As much as i would love to see the unseen beasts themselves, i am damn happy with the four we are going to get.
And like the OP says, the wolverine and griffin are vague hard point variations- all of them have run of the mill weaponry (even for TT rules, let alone online play), 86kph run speed and jump jets.

The Griffin would really have only one "good" model, and that one is essentially a 55ton, fast, jumping Hunch-SP with ECM
PPC(RA) and LRM10(RT), which means it's entirely focused on the right side.
2ML(RA) 1LL(RA) 1LRM5(LT), Minimum 3 laser hardpoints on the arm, and missile moves to opposite torso
2SRM6 (LT RT) a PPC (RA) and ECM (LT), Missile in each side torso, energy on the right arm, jumps, ECM.

The Wolverine has slightly more spread out hardpoints, in that all of it's variants also have a head laser.
I forsee most Wolverines actually being a bit crappy, since in 2 of the 4 options your only energy hardpoint is in the head. In the other 2 you have only right arm and head, and no ballistics.
1UAC/5 (RA) 1MPL (H) 1SRM6 (LT)
2ML (H RA)1SL (RA) 1SRM6 (LT) 1LL (RA)
2ML (H RA) 1SRM6 (LT) 1LL (RA)
1ML (H) 1SRM6 (LT) 1AC/5 (RA)

I'd love to see them, but they really wouldn't add much since PGI only ever adds more hardpoints of the same type in the same section.

Edited by One Medic Army, 03 July 2013 - 11:59 PM.

[Enervation]

One Medic Army, on 03 July 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

I'd love to see them, but they really wouldn't add much since PGI only ever adds more hardpoints of the same type in the same section.

This last line totally doesn't show up on your post lol
And yes, i agree. The Griff is too heavy on the right side, like a hunchy without the left arm or head hardpoints. I think the Shadowhawk has the edge in having at least one of each hardpoint, although with it's basic weapon load out i think this description is a wee bit optimistic:

"The Shadow Hawk as mentioned above [2H] carries a varied, but effective, mix of weapons. Primary among them is the Armstrong J11 Autocannon/5. This weapon as well as the Holly LRM-5 launcher provide the Shadow Hawk with good long range striking capabilities. When the Shadow Hawk closes to shorter ranges it can bring to bear its Holly SRM-2 launcher and its Martell Medium Laser which can generally finish off most 'Mechs of its own weight class or smaller that might have survived the mixed autocannon and LRM fire"

Rrrriiiiiiiiight. I'll take the PPC and LRM-10, thanks.

[Blackfire1]

Nope. Not 100% true at all. Not 100% false either.

We'll see them. There is no doubt about it.

[ShadowbaneX]

For the 55 tonners there's also the Dervish. Which I don't think is unseen in anyway and is the missile support mech of the tonnage class. It'd also upgrade rather well, upping the armour, more ammo, streaks, double heat sinks. Really, we just need more 55 ton mechs.

[Krazy Kat]

In case anyone wants to know:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

[SirLANsalot]

LCT-1V

SHD-2H

TDR-5S

BLR-1G

There you go, all 4 of the mechs for you to play with on smurfy. (smurfy pulls from the game-files itself so these are the hardpoints we will get to play with)

[Belorion]

Blackfire1, on 04 July 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Nope. Not 100% true at all. Not 100% false either.

We'll see them. There is no doubt about it.

In the same breath that Russ said never say never he also said don't hold your breath. They would like for it to happen sure, but the hurtles may be insurmountable.

[Capt Sternn]

Warhammer, marauder, Archer, Longbow, Phoenix Hawk are Just names and Stats. The only thing that is a Copyright issue is the Artwork. So long as they had original artwork they could not get into trouble.

[Nauht]

Capt Sternn, on 04 July 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Warhammer, marauder, Archer, Longbow, Phoenix Hawk are Just names and Stats. The only thing that is a Copyright issue is the Artwork. So long as they had original artwork they could not get into trouble.

As per my first reply, I agree they probably wouldnt in the case of the reseen Marauder, abd possibly the others.

But the point is that with a known aggressively litigious opponent it just wouldn't be worth the hassle or costs to prove that the artwork is different. HG probably knows that they might well lose but they'd be pushing for some form of settlement sum. If PGI fights against that then that's even more costs out of MWO to IP lawyers.

They'd most likely win but it will cost them money to do it.

[Viper69]

I think it would be better to leave them off the table period. Is it not better to have something live in our memory than to show up and not live up to our past remembrance of it? The Warhammer was a super hot mech barely able to fire a fraction of its contingent of weaponry staggered for a few rounds without risk of over heating. The Marauder to me is the most attractive of the unseen but anything less than what I remember wont do it justice. These mechs are better left in my memory. However who is to say that PGI has not already looked into this concurrently with clearing the designs for the phoenix program? For all we know they may have done an art pass of some unseen to test the waters with HG. Who knows, only the shadow knows.

[General Taskeen]

They can use the Warhammer-IIC.

[C E Dwyer]

One Medic Army, on 03 July 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

The Griffin would really have only one "good" model, and that one is essentially a 55ton, fast, jumping Hunch-SP with ECM
PPC(RA) and LRM10(RT), which means it's entirely focused on the right side.
2ML(RA) 1LL(RA) 1LRM5(LT), Minimum 3 laser hardpoints on the arm, and missile moves to opposite torso
2SRM6 (LT RT) a PPC (RA) and ECM (LT), Missile in each side torso, energy on the right arm, jumps, ECM.

The Wolverine has slightly more spread out hardpoints, in that all of it's variants also have a head laser.
I forsee most Wolverines actually being a bit crappy, since in 2 of the 4 options your only energy hardpoint is in the head. In the other 2 you have only right arm and head, and no ballistics.
1UAC/5 (RA) 1MPL (H) 1SRM6 (LT)
2ML (H RA)1SL (RA) 1SRM6 (LT) 1LL (RA)
2ML (H RA) 1SRM6 (LT) 1LL (RA)
1ML (H) 1SRM6 (LT) 1AC/5 (RA)

I'd love to see them, but they really wouldn't add much since PGI only ever adds more hardpoints of the same type in the same section.

Agreed but a lot comes down to personal choice, the Griffins standard layout was rather lame, but if given a chance I will get one.

For what a mech can add to game play there is very little need if any at all to have more than 3 types of each weight class other than to sell in the old days, metal and plastic figures, and virtual mechs now.

Its all down to personal favorites for the long time fans of battle tech and mechwarrior

For those that are completely new to MWO the types of chassis from 'the olden days are irrelevant they'll develope a favorite from whats here

[C E Dwyer]

Viper69, on 05 July 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

I think it would be better to leave them off the table period. Is it not better to have something live in our memory than to show up and not live up to our past remembrance of it? The Warhammer was a super hot mech barely able to fire a fraction of its contingent of weaponry staggered for a few rounds without risk of over heating. The Marauder to me is the most attractive of the unseen but anything less than what I remember wont do it justice. These mechs are better left in my memory. However who is to say that PGI has not already looked into this concurrently with clearing the designs for the phoenix program? For all we know they may have done an art pass of some unseen to test the waters with HG. Who knows, only the shadow knows.

I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with you, as I'm going through this with The Victor the concept art was wonderful,the 3d modelers I feel turned a silk purse into a sows ear, the shoulder and hip joints being far to wide, in my opinion it wasn't close enough to the original model, however when I can't see all the ugly, it feels like I'm looking out the cockpit of a Victor.

If we leave the table top behind then we would all be piloting Ravens, as its the only mech, that isn't in the 3029 tech manual, and that I havn't a model of.

I'm not really sure whats going on in the 3d modeling department, I feel either they are getting lazy, there has been a staff change around, and not for the better, or the pressure of producing a new mech each month, has got to them,as the older mechs are very close to both alex's artwork and the original lead/pewter models.


Sadly the newer ones seem excessively different, as if they glanced rather than studied the shapes and the concept art, if the standard of the Pheonix mechs is of the poor recent standard, and not like the quality of the founders mechs then I think there will be a lot of hate spouted here and could have a negative effect on how many of the old school remain in 2014

[Viper69]

To me the Victor looks like a copy of the Centurion and a lazy one at that. It looks like a Centurion mated with a Quickdraw. I dont like the angular look the new theme of art its a trend lately, everyone has to have angular motif. I like the curves of the Marauder and would not like it if they made the cockpit look like a catapult with long arms. I can only imagine what angular monstrosity the Timber Wolf will be.

Edited by Viper69, 05 July 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[General Taskeen]

I just hope to god the Orion keeps the curves and rounded arm guns on the concept art. Probably the closest things to 'curves' from original Battle Tech.

Edited by General Taskeen, 05 July 2013 - 11:13 AM.