256 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Ghogiel, on 08 July 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

The one where match maker works best in a larger queue.

Honestly, it would actually benefit the matchmaking, most likely.
1) Solo players being matched against other solo players will most likely be more evenly matched.
2) It would enable groups larger than 4 to start playing again, which may help provide more overall players in the pool.

[Ghogiel]

Roland, on 08 July 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Honestly, it would actually benefit the matchmaking, most likely.
1) Solo players being matched against other solo players will most likely be more evenly matched.
2) It would enable groups larger than 4 to start playing again, which may help provide more overall players in the pool.

1) Adding team and no team queue permutations adds 4 extra queues once 3rd person is in, Therefore assuming fewer players in each bucket is a given, how can it possibly match better than compared to a larger pool to match from?
2) we are probably going to get that anyway by all accounts.

Edited by Ghogiel, 08 July 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Roland]

Ghogiel, on 08 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

1) Adding team and no team queue permutations adds 4 extra queues once 3rd person is in, Therefore assuming fewer players in each bucket is a given, how can it possibly match better than compared to a larger pool to match from?

3rd person is a mistake. I'm not gonna bother eliminating the possibility for queues that would actually benefit the community, in order to keep room for garbage queues that the majority of the community don't even want.

[Percimes]

It's not so much a solo queue I want but rather that the premade groups in the teams be somewhat balanced. For this purpose I would put solo players and duo at the same value and groups of three and four at another. Combined with a working Elo/Matchmaker it should produce more balanced matches.

I'm not so sure the queue system can be considered in its final version yet: the CW could change the way teams are built. So the debate is still open.

From my personal experience premade are generaly not good team players. Oh sure they are quite good with the members of their guild/clan/squad, but when not with the rest of their buddies they have little patience for others. Being on Vent or TS isolate then even more so if you mix them with pugers they'll do their things and almost forget the rest. I've seen this in Warhammer Online, WoW, DAoC and other MMORPG. And I say all this as someone guilty of it: I've seen both side.

Anyone saying VOIP doesn't make a big difference are being dishonnest. I does. Typing is so slow and prevents you from controling your mech so you end up saying nothing when you should do so the most.

[Lugh]

Disapirro, on 07 July 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Assuming the base is big enough or becomes big enough. Now what's your beef with the idea?

I don't like assuming as it makes an *** of you and ming, and that isn't fair to ming.

Just because you are a casual player and want to go all john q rambo YO ANDRIAN IMA SHOOTIN' DA MECHS BY MESELF IMA WIN IT 4YAH!

Doesn't mean that you cannot do what you are supposed to do, support your assault mechs in annihilating the enemy force.

[Disapirro]

xDeityx, on 08 July 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Could it be that you are afraid of playing in the more competitive environment we currently have?

You mean like I already do 100% of the time, or joining a group on voice comms like you so I can stomp puggers.

Look, I understand you have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo so that you can continue to win and feel good about yourself, but some would like a better experience, and we are offering up what we think is a potential solution. You disagree, so noted.

[New Day]

El Bandito, on 08 July 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Where did I say the pre-mades will be ******? Where did I say that I have stopped playing?

Don't try to interpret things to your own biased view.

"doing nothing is still more interesting than playing in the boring PPC meta"
Since there is PPC meta now and according to you doing nothing is more interesting than playing. I assumed that you would do what is more interesting, which in this case is nothing. If the solo queue is populated then the 4man(3,2) wouldn't be. It would become like the current 8man queue.

And with whose view should I interpret things?

Also with 3pv everyone could enjoy a nice book before match

[Lugh]

Roland, on 08 July 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Honestly, it would actually benefit the matchmaking, most likely.
1) Solo players being matched against other solo players will most likely be more evenly matched.
2) It would enable groups larger than 4 to start playing again, which may help provide more overall players in the pool.

1-it ensures the good and the really good and OMG he's good pilots a fertile feeble easy killing ground.
2-sych dropping is still possible and if you are honest about skill levels can still be accomplished.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Disapirro, on 07 July 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

This game needs a solo queue where people are not on voice comms, except through the game, and a ‘pro’ queue where organized teams on voice comms can get what they claim to desire, a competitive match.

I believe this will damper some of the balance issues. I think the ppc, or other fotm issues really become a problem when one side or the other has too many running that build and the other side does not. More solo randomization for casual players may lesson this by distributing the ‘good’ builds by randomly assigning them to teams, rather than what is currently happening with the people who know what they are doing and getting a drop in their favor by dropping together with others in like builds

I don't have a problem with the 'pro' players playing the way they like against other 'pro' players with only the ‘best’ weapons and tactics. What I have a problem with, as an exclusively pug playing member of the base, is the pug stomping. Mostly what I hear is, “I am competitive and want to be the best so I use the best weapons and group up because that is how you win.” Great, now do this in the ‘pro’ player queue, and once and for all, you will now know if you are as good as you think you are.

*posted earlier in another thread, but thought it should be own topic discussion.

No.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Ghogiel, on 08 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

1) Adding team and no team queue permutations adds 4 extra queues once 3rd person is in, Therefore assuming fewer players in each bucket is a given, how can it possibly match better than compared to a larger pool to match from?
2) we are probably going to get that anyway by all accounts.

Depending on implementation yes.

They could still remain with 2 group ques, and simply the MM will automatically match those with 3rd Person enabled against others.
Or if no match found into a first person game etc etc.

Diluting the que's is a pretty poor "against" argument, because as more game modes are added, the more dilution anyway.
We still have CW, and Dropship mutator to do this.

What we're saying is the MM in a 2 que form, keeps solo vs solo, group vs group.

There really is no negative aspect to this.

Edited by DV McKenna, 08 July 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Sigifrid, on 07 July 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

We have been over this. The answer is no. We do not need the queue split any further than it will be, especially with the 3rd person view (crap) coming.

You have to have players to divide. The way it is now very few noobs stay. It sucks for them and not for you so we get your point.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Percimes, on 08 July 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

It's not so much a solo queue I want but rather that the premade groups in the teams be somewhat balanced. For this purpose I would put solo players and duo at the same value and groups of three and four at another. Combined with a working Elo/Matchmaker it should produce more balanced matches.

I'm not so sure the queue system can be considered in its final version yet: the CW could change the way teams are built. So the debate is still open.

From my personal experience premade are generaly not good team players. Oh sure they are quite good with the members of their guild/clan/squad, but when not with the rest of their buddies they have little patience for others. Being on Vent or TS isolate then even more so if you mix them with pugers they'll do their things and almost forget the rest. I've seen this in Warhammer Online, WoW, DAoC and other MMORPG. And I say all this as someone guilty of it: I've seen both side.

Anyone saying VOIP doesn't make a big difference are being dishonnest. I does. Typing is so slow and prevents you from controling your mech so you end up saying nothing when you should do so the most.

Match this moring I dropped with a premade 4 man. Wasn't too thrilled about it as the usual "were going here anyone care to follow" came up in chat. Sure as the sun the noobs ran in that direction with the 4 man sitting on the pad. After the noobs were finished off the 4 man wiped the floor against the solo other team. Those guys all remmeber what total jerks that team was and now wont trust the next. Thing is three were founders. I have learned to trust them the least in a match after so many times. Thats just sad in so many ways. The guys who got it started are killing it at the same time, When I see them post against anything and everything that would help new players I can only think of one word for them and it would be censored.

[Lugh]

DV McKenna, on 08 July 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Depending on implementation yes.

They could still remain with 2 group ques, and simply the MM will automatically match those with 3rd Person enabled against others.
Or if no match found into a first person game etc etc.

Diluting the que's is a pretty poor "against" argument, because as more game modes are added, the more dilution anyway.
We still have CW, and Dropship mutator to do this anyway.

What we're saying is the MM in a 2 que form, keeps solo vs solo, group vs group.

There really is no negative aspect to this.

Except for the QQ thread that will start almost immediately up on the start of this entitledOMFG PGI IHAVE TO WAIT 10minutes for a match WTF?!

[xDeityx]

Disapirro, on 08 July 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

You mean like I already do 100% of the time,

That is what "current" means, yes.

Disapirro, on 08 July 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

or joining a group on voice comms like you so I can stomp puggers.

You are creating the false dichotomy here that either one is either solo queuing or in a premade and therefore stomping pugs.

This was generally true before Elo ratings were implemented. Now it is simply misinformed.

Disapirro, on 08 July 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Look, I understand you have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo so that you can continue to win and feel good about yourself, but some would like a better experience, and we are offering up what we think is a potential solution. You disagree, so noted.

Your argument would sound a lot less whiny if you stopped trying to peg me as some elitist who is out to ruin your fun. I run 4-mans, 3-mans, 2-mans, and I solo queue. I have the perspective of both sides here. You only have the perspective of the lone wolf. Try seeing what the other side is like.

I'm sure at the level at which you play premades are scary, but as you get better you will find that they really aren't. Clicking "invite" or "accept" doesn't magically make you better at the game. Most of the things said in your average premade's comms are things that players with good awareness already know from paying attention to the battle.

[Deathlike]

Having a solo queue is not a good solution.. it segregates a player base needlessly at times. The actual problem generally speaking is that the major differences in ELO that the groups have compared to the solo PUGs that fill the ranks... and also the "fear of premade whining". Frankly, if solo PUGs knew that there was a premade on their side and found out that there was also a premade on the opposing side (which is more often than not the case), there wouldn't be screams and cries about "how premades are ruining their games". People need to stop finding excuses that premades are the problem... because that's generally not the case. Your team more often than not played poorly, through lack of execution, but moreso, lack of coordination. Most PUG games suffer from lack of coordination and subsequently lose for that reason alone.

Separating the queues "in theory" sounds like a good idea, but very likely we're only eliminating one excuse for the pool of terribad excuses that solo PUGs make with respect to MM.

[HansBlix WMD]

Deathlike, on 08 July 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Your team more often than not played poorly, through lack of execution, but moreso, lack of coordination. Most PUG games suffer from lack of coordination and subsequently lose for that reason alone.

Separating the queues "in theory" sounds like a good idea, but very likely we're only eliminating one excuse for the pool of terribad excuses that solo PUGs make with respect to MM.

Of course soloers lose to groups because of coordination. G R O U P S are C O O R D I N A T E D. That's why they don't belong in the same queue.

The only terribad excuse here is the smoke and lies team stackers use to try to justify annihilating solo opposition who L A C K C O O R D I N A T I O N .

[Roland]

Quote

Having a solo queue is not a good solution.. it segregates a player base needlessly at times.

Segregating people who want, specifically, to be segregated from groups is not a bad thing.

It will improve their play experience, and it will likely improve the experience of people who actually want to play as teams.

No one benefits from forcing people to play in a game they don't really want. Eventually, they'll just stop playing anyway, at which point you're effectively segregating them anyway.. you're just segregating them into a group that will no longer contribute to the game at all.

[Balsover]

To those saying that MWO lacks the playerbase to split into solo and groups queues. why do you think that is?

Player and new player retention is pretty low at the moment. Saying everything is fine, learn to play, is not working.

Making the game new player, and by association, solo friendly should be the primary concern at the moment.

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 08 July 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Segregating people who want, specifically, to be segregated from groups is not a bad thing.

It will improve their play experience, and it will likely improve the experience of people who actually want to play as teams.

No one benefits from forcing people to play in a game they don't really want. Eventually, they'll just stop playing anyway, at which point you're effectively segregating them anyway.. you're just segregating them into a group that will no longer contribute to the game at all.

So, for the sake of argument that we have such queues.. and I can join both as I wish. Let's say that I rake in the solo queue just as much as the group queue (which is unlikely, but just humor me)... wouldn't people just be accusing me of just farming those people in the solo queue? It doesn't seem like it makes it any better... it just moves the qq to something different.

A number of elite players will solo for various reasons... but the problem then simply becomes that they are accused of farming the solo queue. That doesn't really fix the problem that the original idea intends to resolve.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 July 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[xDeityx]

HansBlix WMD, on 08 July 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Of course soloers lose to groups because of coordination. G R O U P S are C O O R D I N A T E D. That's why they don't belong in the same queue.

The only terribad excuse here is the smoke and lies team stackers use to try to justify annihilating solo opposition who L A C K C O O R D I N A T I O N .

Actually just being in a group and on comms doesn't automatically make you coordinated. You need skill for coordination.

Unskilled players are actually hurt by being on comms. Having VOIP is just one more thing that they have to deal with and many of them aren't trained in proper battlefield communication etiquette. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone take a simple message like "2 heavies 1 light at Epsilon" and turn it into a rambling diatribe that hogs the communications and prevents you from hearing important in-game sound queues.

At higher Elo ratings both the premades and the pugs have coordination that comes naturally from having awareness of your surroundings. I've solo dropped onto teams where we've communicate with each other by how we maneuvered our 'mechs. Just establishing some "eye" contact and then charging after your team scores a long-range kill is enough of a "follow me" that nothing needs to be said.

The above paragraph is why I think that most of the complaints about premades are coming from players in lower Elo ratings who happen to see 4 players with the same House affiliation and assume a premade.