65 replies to this topic

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Roland, on 08 July 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

I suspect that even if they implemented the min range on gauss, it would still get used exactly as much as it does now... especially given that the min range is supposed to be 30m.

At 30m, you are essentially mashing your face against the target in Mechwarrior... which is probably the real reason they didn't add in the min range. It doesn't really matter.

True dat.

[Livewyr]

von Pilsner, on 08 July 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Even if it balances nothing it would be pretty funny...

My sentiments exactly.. no reason to do it.. but to watch Highlanders, Stalkers, and Cataphracts cry.. lol

[KuruptU4Fun]

So as a suggestion, PPC's maintain a residual charge that builds up over time, dissipates at a slower rate than the charge up. Then if the charged rate goes above a certain point, a percentage to blow up and cause mech damage is "rolled" each time it's fired?

[Felicitatem Parco]

zraven7, on 08 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

PPCs are, in many ways, a Gauss cannon. They just fire charged particles instead of a ferrous slug. They use similar magnetic fields and capacitors. By that logic, if a Gauss blows up, a PPC should blow up. Make PPCs do 20 damage when they go up. That should help balance them some.

Gauss Rifles use a series of solenoid magnets to pull a magnetic slug out the barrel. Gauss Rifles explodes because the capacitor banks that power the magnets are always fully-charged with more than the amount of energy that ultimately makes it to the slug (in order to let you fire on-the-fly and compensate for transfer inefficiencies), and those capacitors are liable to explode if their containers are breached (this happens IRL, overcharged or damaged capacitors explode like little bombs while releasing extremely hot and corrosive chemicals).

PPCs work by diverting a tiny puff of engine plasma down some ducts to the weapon's mounting location, and then through a negatively-charged electric field that accelerates the positively charged atomic nuclei to extreme velocities like a fempto-scale electric machine gun (that fires a burst of trillions of trillions of shots within a tiny fraction of a second).

The electric fields that accelerate the PPC burst are most likely fed by a capacitor bank, but this was left out of the BattleTech lore and gameplay for a reason - the boardgame designers didn't think it was needed as a rule... I'm just saying there is no reason for the OP's idea to be shunned simply because it's not canon... as it does fit with what could have gone into the canon without violating anything.

Should we do it, though? PPCs exploding upon destruction? I say "No,", because the Gauss Rifle explosion is a Balancing Mechanic introduced by the boardgame designers in response to Ammo Explosions, and that parallel fits very well into MW:O. Introducing an exploding PPC would be a tool only meant to balance the PPC, itself, whereas we already have a "rule" for self-balancing PPC's.

=> Therefore, I believe that PPC Balancing should be better achieved by modulating the Feedback Mechanism, rather than by introducing PPC Detonations.


How about transferring the damage that's "lost within 90m" back to the shooter?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 July 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Vaktor]

Why is no one suggesting the obvious... Don't make PPCs explode like Gauss when they are hit and destroyed... Make them explode when they overheat!!!

The center torso is currently damaged when overheating over 120% so give the PPCs a good of chance exploding when you breach that barrier...

How great would that be? Super great that's what!!!

I can see it now... I take 6 PPCs to the chest but I don't care because I am to busy laughing at the stalker that just exploded because of taking 120 damage from overheating their PPCs...

Plus it would not screw up the poeple who use a sane amount of PPCs like me (I use one PCCs in my Centi)

Edited by Vaktor, 08 July 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lostdragon, on 08 July 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

I think that is just a band aid solution and doesn't address the core problems that have led to PPC dominance.

Not enough penalties for Overheating, and I hate Spinach.

[Wreknar Temper]

Please, no more tacked on, one off solutions to core balance issues. Nobody seems to agree on these forums exactly what the core problems are, but here's a list of things that probably need to be looked at before adding these in these workarounds are even entertained;

In No Order of Importance

1. Heat scaling penalties...ties directly to energy weapon vs. ballistic weapon vs. missile weapon balance and the biggest contributing offender to date on the boating problem.
2. Pin point convergence...is it really healthy to this type of game? If not, what is the best balancing point to reward skill without devolving the system into a game of "luck".
3. Missile lock-on coding...tightened flights and "always locked on to CT" mechanics lead to predictable, almost unavoidable damage to a single locale.
4. Matchmaker algorithms...a better attempt needs to be made to balance weight between groups. ELO is not accurately reflecting your skill level when heavier mechs have a significantly more positive effect on your ELO than lighter mechs.
5. Clan Warfare/Custom Matches/Lobby System...hopefully #1 on their priority list (and allocated resources) right now as this will allow more flexibility with the player base. Player leagues, scenarios, missions hinge on this as well as contribute to the longevity of the game.
6. Hardpoint limitations...somewhat against the credo of this game, but I can see the logic. Investigation into whether it is necessary to further classify the weapon hard points into small/medium/large categories.

[IceSerpent]

Prosperity Park, on 08 July 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

and those capacitors are liable to explode if their containers are breached (this happens IRL, overcharged or damaged capacitors explode like little bombs while releasing extremely hot and corrosive chemicals).

That's not entirely correct - only electrlytic capacitors explode, and it happens when you exceed the voltage it's rated for. It's impossible to "overcharge" a capacitor - it would simply sit there holding its maximum charge, no matter how long you wait. Physically damaged capacitors (i.e. if you cut a charged one in half) are more likely to simply stop working (lose charge) than explode.

[Vaktor]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 July 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Not enough penalties for Overheating, and I hate Spinach.

Exactly make the PPCs explode when they overheat...

[HansBlix WMD]

IceSerpent, on 08 July 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

That's not entirely correct - only electrlytic capacitors explode, and it happens when you exceed the voltage it's rated for. It's impossible to "overcharge" a capacitor - it would simply sit there holding its maximum charge, no matter how long you wait. Physically damaged capacitors (i.e. if you cut a charged one in half) are more likely to simply stop working (lose charge) than explode.

If you close the capacitor circuit with little or no resistance, you will indeed suffer something very catastrophic, if there were a lot of charge stored.

Ever see someone connect two capacitor leads with a screwdriver?

Edit: Did you mean electrolytic? In other words, a battery? Yes, batteries can explode, from overheating...

Edited by HansBlix WMD, 08 July 2013 - 01:55 PM.

[Rashhaverak]

Now Prosperity Park is on to something. Having the damage difference below 90 meters feed back into the shooter not only fits very well into the canon description of the weapon's operation, but also creates a very interesting, potentially self-limiting mechanic to the heavy PPC builds. If you build a mech with six PPCs, better be sure it's worth the shot if your inside 90 meters, or better carry auxiliary weapons to deal with the fast light or medium that gets into your minimum range.

Also, this would also make it more challenging to poptart and hill hump on heavy boat builds. If you don't clear that hill you're using as cover, you could eat your own PPC damage and blow your arms off!

This could be a great idea. Park, you should definitely send that to Paul.

Additionally, they could make a visual representation of the feedback, so you could see the damage occurring. Perhaps electrical arcs coming back into the shooter? The feedback could travel back over the trail of the shot and into the housing component, dealing damage. (Essentially have the shot graphic show movement in reverse if the impact is under 90 meters. Might not be too hard to program if the same graphic is used and just reversed.)

Dang, the more I think about it, the more I like it.

Edited by Rashhaverak, 08 July 2013 - 02:29 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Rashhaverak, on 08 July 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

This could be a great idea. Park, you should definitely send that to Paul.

You wanna know a 100% effective way of making sure a feature doesn't get into the game? Have me suggest it to Paul...




I was thinking that firing a PPC within 90 causes feedback, right? Well, have the damage reduction be reflected back to the component that mounts the PPC, or deal damage directly to the PPC's 10 health points. If you hit an enemy at 45M, they receive 5dmg and your PPC's item health is down to 5. Do it again, and you self-crit your PPC to death.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 July 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Rashhaverak]

Park, I like it, but I think the damage should impact the housing component, not the weapon directly. People will make mistakes, and I think that there should be some forgiveness in the mechanism. For example, I have fired into a tourmaline crystal many times when I was very sure I was clear of the obstruction. I don't think a player should have their weapons completely blown off by one mistake. The damage to the arms, or whatever component houses the weapon, is enough of a deterrent, I think, to influence better behavior.

Edited by Rashhaverak, 08 July 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Rashhaverak, on 08 July 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Park, I like it, but I think the damage should impact the housing component, not the weapon directly. People will make mistakes, and I think that there should be some forgiveness in the mechanism. For example, I have fired into a tourmaline crystal many times when I was very sure I was clear of the obstruction. I don't think a player should have their weapons completely blown off by one mistake. The damage to the arms, or whatever component houses the weapon, is enough of a deterrent, I think, to influence better behavior.

Well, damage to a component can blow it up, but damage to a weapon can't hurt you if the weapon doesn't explode or anything... I think the latter idea is more forgiving in terms of not posing a risk of Mech Loss.

[stjobe]

Prosperity Park, on 08 July 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

I was thinking that firing a PPC within 90 causes feedback, right? Well, have the damage reduction be reflected back to the component that mounts the PPC, or deal damage directly to the PPC's 10 health points. If you hit an enemy at 45M, they receive 5dmg and your PPC's item health is down to 5. Do it again, and you self-crit your PPC to death.

While that might work well for the minimum-range PPC, it does nothing to the ERPPC - which seem to be much more common on the battlefield than the humble PPC.

[Joseph Mallan]

zraven7, on 08 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

PPCs are, in many ways, a Gauss cannon. They just fire charged particles instead of a ferrous slug. They use similar magnetic fields and capacitors. By that logic, if a Gauss blows up, a PPC should blow up. Make PPCs do 20 damage when they go up. That should help balance them some.

The PPC Capacitor does something like this. It is a 1 ton add on that makes a IS PPC as powerful as a Clan version... and blows up for 10 damage IIRC.

[KAT Ayanami]

Nah. The issue is how much damage they do. Not how difficult is to blow up the mech carrying the weapons.

[IceSerpent]

HansBlix WMD, on 08 July 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

If you close the capacitor circuit with little or no resistance, you will indeed suffer something very catastrophic, if there were a lot of charge stored.

Ever see someone connect two capacitor leads with a screwdriver?

You will get a miniature lightning bolt and can possibly damage (melt part of) the screwdriver if the capacitor is large enough. Nothing overly catastrophic.

Quote

Edit: Did you mean electrolytic? In other words, a battery? Yes, batteries can explode, from overheating...

Yes, I meant electrolytic, sorry about the typo. No, I was not talking about batteries. Just google it if you are curious - it's one of the capacitor types (looks like a small metal cylinder with two connectors sticking out of one end of it).

[Corvus Antaka]

terrible idea. the gauss changes hardly matter, dual gauss k2 is completely unaffected.

[Purlana]

Overheating should cause the last weapons fired to take DMG. Overheat enough and the weapon should malfunction and cease working for the match. Punishes reckless Alphas and overheating.

Edited by Purlana, 09 July 2013 - 08:24 AM.