98 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Sybreed, on 08 July 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Step 3: Bring back ECM to sanity level of game design, slows lock time but doesn't prevent it

this

[Lugh]

3rdworld, on 09 July 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

It is funny to think about the current meta.

Look at how bad they butchered LRMs with ECM, then how bad they knee-capped missiles with "splash".

How bad are they going to destroy PPCs? My guess is completely worthless for the better part of 6 months.

They were completely useless through ALL of closed beta so that would be no surprise at all.

[Gevurah]

I run an LRM boat pretty consistently and I have to say if you can't get lock on your targets you're probably doing it wrong. There are a LOT of counters on the field right now for ECM. The best one though is best suited to the afforementioned trebuchet so I am confused at the lack of use:

NARC.

When I started playing back in october, NARC was horrible. Something like 15 seconds uptime, cancelled by ECM, with 6 ammo per ton and some stupidly short range of like 270m.

NARC now has been buffed to a point of near godlike power for getting large volleys off:
12 shots per ton
Cancels ECM
Lasts 30 seconds
Has 450m range.


So you run in, (optionally poptart the shot), hit em with a NARC, pop down on the backside of the hill and unload LRMs over the hill where they cannot effectively return fire. In my case, I have a team member use NARC for me off a raven or Jenner. But on a treb it's very feasible to include it as part of the loadout of a 7M, similar to stock.

Or you put a TAG laser on for target acquisition (not my preference due to necessity of exposure to get the laser shots off - is more suited towards better armored missile platforms like awesomes, catas and stalkers).

Either way, LRMs are the cure for the PPC boating ills of the current meta so use your tools more effectively.

[Sybreed]

Gevurah, on 09 July 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

I run an LRM boat pretty consistently and I have to say if you can't get lock on your targets you're probably doing it wrong. There are a LOT of counters on the field right now for ECM. The best one though is best suited to the afforementioned trebuchet so I am confused at the lack of use:

NARC.

When I started playing back in october, NARC was horrible. Something like 15 seconds uptime, cancelled by ECM, with 6 ammo per ton and some stupidly short range of like 270m.

NARC now has been buffed to a point of near godlike power for getting large volleys off:
12 shots per ton
Cancels ECM
Lasts 30 seconds
Has 450m range.


So you run in, (optionally poptart the shot), hit em with a NARC, pop down on the backside of the hill and unload LRMs over the hill where they cannot effectively return fire. In my case, I have a team member use NARC for me off a raven or Jenner. But on a treb it's very feasible to include it as part of the loadout of a 7M, similar to stock.

Or you put a TAG laser on for target acquisition (not my preference due to necessity of exposure to get the laser shots off - is more suited towards better armored missile platforms like awesomes, catas and stalkers).

Either way, LRMs are the cure for the PPC boating ills of the current meta so use your tools more effectively.

you know what? That's perhaps the best suggestion I've had on this thread (didn't read the whole thing as I'm afraid there are lot of insults lol). I used to have NarC on my Treb but removed it..... it was useless back then. I should use it again and I won't even have to drop lasers!

edit: But they really need to get rid of the HP per beacon and just make it last 20 seconds straight.

Edited by Sybreed, 09 July 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Someone really just recommended NARC?

lol

[Sybreed]

Cathy, on 09 July 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Reduce ecm effectivness and there will be even more lrm boats than there are now, narc effects ecm, tag effects ecm bap effects ecm, if these are fitted to mechs in your team ecm will be far less effective, its because people chose to slap another weapon on the mech for more damage output, and then gimp themselves is the problem not ECM

Personally I think things are fine and admittedly it could do with less ppc boiating but it could also do with less lrm boating

I take the other view, I'm sick of being in teams where I'm a light, medium, or heavy expected to run the gauntlet so HGN and Stalker builds with nothing but LRMs and a tag can spam damage..

Thx for your input. The problem is the bi-polar design that is the ECM and all its counters.

You're either completely countered, or you completely counter it. I'll give you an example how it's bad design when you leave no choice to your opponent:

In LoL, there's this champion called Nasus. Nasus has a spell called Wither which slows the movement and attack speed of the targeted champion. The slows increases with time to a maximum of 90%. It was crazy and made him one of the best gankers of the game. The problem with that spells is that it left no room to the targeted champion to manoeuver. It couldn't either attack or move, so all it could do is take a pounding while it waited for the spell to end. Or, use flash if it wasn't on cooldown. What Riot did was to nerf the attack speed debuff, now letting the targetted champion the option to fight. You might not run far, but at least you can still attack.

The problem here is that ECM is all or nothing. You're either affected or not. It should be a debuff, sure, but not a 100% debuff. Your lock time should be slowed, but you should be able to attack your opponent still. Also, NARC was supposed to be countered by ECM, not the other way around. If you want to use LRMs without being completely countered by ECM, you HAVE to bring either NARC or TAG now. Even worse, the current stupidity of hardpoints makes you forced to drop a laser while the ECM carrier has its own hardpoint for ECM. PGI should just give an additionnal hardpoint to any LRM carrier so it can carry TAG because why wouldn't they? Some mechs have 3 or 4 lasers but hold 4 or 5 energy hardpoints. Where's the logic in that anyway? That's why I said hardpoints are arbitrary and don't make much sense right now.

Also, if your team wants you to run in the middle of a stalker/highlander group and tag, you might as well bring a UAV with you, run in, drop it, call it a day.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 July 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Someone really just recommended NARC?

lol

lol, I'm gonna try it and post some feedback, should be interesting.

[General Taskeen]

Gevurah, on 09 July 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

narc

Funny thing is, NARC was way more powerful in Battle Tech and made as such in other Mech Warrior games, BUT it was canceled by ECM, since ECM canceled the powerful NARC tool. NARC also worked in combination with SRMs, hence why there are so many builds in TT where a Mech has NARC in combination with SRMs, or SRMs and LRMs, even on Assault Mechs.

Everything is backwards they way they did it.

[General Taskeen]

MaddMaxx, on 09 July 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Come on dude. You complain you have just Lasers to defend your LRM based Mech versus ECM. and then complain again that you have to give up 1 ton to get to use them from 750m in?

Do you want to use those Missiles or not ffs. Then do what it takes for you to use them, and if that is a 1 ton laser dropped, then that is the tax. Those PPC carriers you gripe about, guess what they pay, the DHS tax.

You don't like that tax level, change Tax brackets and carry an other.

Sorry there is no Tax in Battle Tech when using LRMs, just accuracy.

If you have a Mech with 4 Lasers, and several tons of LRM15s with ammo, you can still use and lock with your LRMs. No tax required, because that would have been dumb. And what do you know, it is dumb in practice in a Mech Warrior game.

Edited by General Taskeen, 09 July 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[Sybreed]

yeahh sooo NARC feedback numero uno:

In River City night, ECM Cicada runs in our group cancelling us, so I go a bit in the open to NARC someone.

Got blown up to bits

[Mister Blastman]

OP: It's okay. These are normal processes you are going through right now. You're only one step away from the final stage. The final stage is where you get to the point of not playing the game at all.



I got there a week ago (the day of the last patch) and as much as I want to play, the rage just wells up inside and I don't bother turning the game on.

[MustrumRidcully]

Narc could perhaps be fine it wasn't also cancelled by damage.

Or it might be a lot lighter.

The problem is for the LRM user - if you can "Narc" a target, you don't need to narc it. It's in plain sight in front of you.

Narc could be useful on the spotter - nar and run, everyone is happy but the guy that's raining LRMs on. But the effects of Narc are not worth carrying it on the off-chance you actually have a few LRM boats.

[InRev]

topgun505, on 09 July 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

If the target is in the middle of a blob and all of them have AMS then yes you are correct. If the target is by himself then I have to call BS

AMS doesn't do crap against a dedicated LRM boat.

AMS is handy vs the occasional odd volley thrown your way. Considering how many LRM boats I see fielded as of late I have started taking AMS on any of my mechs that travel slower than 120kph. It will help you get to nearby cover alive but if you get caught out in the open it isn't going to save your arse

Here's the thing: LRMs shouldn't have to be boated in order to be effective. A single LRM-5 should be just as viable per tonnage as any other weapon. Low damage, but low tonnage. I shouldn't have to overload an AMS screen with 40 missiles in order to see effects.

No other weapon in the game is so severely limited. A single PPC does 10 damage. A single medium laser does 5 damage. All that matters is that you hit. With LRMs, a single LRM-5 will do 0 damage in most combat situations, because of how AMS works. How is this considered acceptable? Why is it ok for an entire weapon system to be completely negated? Why should it be necessary or even mandatory to boat in order to actually do anything? There is no magic module that completely wipes one medium laser per volley off the table. Only LRMs are punished like this and it's ********.

It severely complicates the balancing process because LRMs are so extreme. They either are a total waste of tonnage (anything less than LRM-30) or they become a meteor shower of doom (LRM-50+). AMS and ECM mean that you must completely stuff your mech full of LRMs in order to make them viable when they do actually hit (around 35% of the time).

AMS desperately needs a rework. Maybe a percentage based system to punish extreme boat while not hurting small LRM'ers would be better than the hard counter we have now. I don't know, but something's gotta change.

[Sybreed]

MustrumRidcully, on 09 July 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Narc could perhaps be fine it wasn't also cancelled by damage.

Or it might be a lot lighter.

The problem is for the LRM user - if you can "Narc" a target, you don't need to narc it. It's in plain sight in front of you.

Narc could be useful on the spotter - nar and run, everyone is happy but the guy that's raining LRMs on. But the effects of Narc are not worth carrying it on the off-chance you actually have a few LRM boats.

yeah, the cancelled by damage is freaking idiotic. If I NARC someone and it's already being attacked by ANY KIND OF WEAPONS FROM MY TEAM it's cancelled. This needs to go.

[buttmonkey]

take a break man i know the feeling. it gets so frustrating sometimes and i dont want to end up hating the game so im on an extended break until CW comes. if it comes, il come back i suggest you take a little break as well, too much rage quitting wil just make you perma quit in the end

[MaddMaxx]

Lugh, on 09 July 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

They were completely useless through ALL of closed beta so that would be no surprise at all.

The really interesting part about that is that they were at TT levels then. LOL!

[MaddMaxx]

General Taskeen, on 09 July 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Sorry there is no Tax in Battle Tech when using LRMs, just accuracy.

If you have a Mech with 4 Lasers, and several tons of LRM15s with ammo, you can still use and lock with your LRMs. No tax required, because that would have been dumb. And what do you know, it is dumb in practice in a Mech Warrior game.

Tax was being used as a metaphor ffs. That was not what the Post I responded to stated. They were pissed off they had to drop a 1 ton laser in order to help counter the effects of an ECM Mech they apparent wanted to LRM to death. It sounded as if that was some sort of tax that they alone had to carry, a burden so to speak. Every mech has to make some form of sacrifice in order to do what the player wants. Otherwise we would not need a MechLab at all.

There is not one item in MWO that cannot be countered. Not liking how something works is fine, QQ'ing about it, endlessly, is simply pointless. Use the counters ffs.

When that happens I will gladly jump up on the fence and scream bloody murder with everyone else. Until then, having to use Tools, to counter other Tools is not a bad thing.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 09 July 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Zany]

I swear there isn't a bigger group of babies on these boards than LRM lovers.

You get to sit back at base or on a hilltop, IN NO DANGER WHATSOEVER, and lob missles at foes a mile away. It takes no skill. There has to be a counter to that.

So in closing:

Cry more noob

[FupDup]

Zany, on 09 July 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

I swear there isn't a bigger group of babies on these boards than LRM lovers.

You get to sit back at base or on a hilltop, IN NO DANGER WHATSOEVER, and lob missles at foes a mile away. It takes no skill. There has to be a counter to that.

So in closing:

Cry more noob

Two things:
1. LRMs actually suck at long range because they move too slowly to catch people before they take cover.

2. Lobbing ERPPCs away from danger at extreme range isn't any better.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Zany, on 09 July 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

I swear there isn't a bigger group of babies on these boards than LRM lovers.

You get to sit back at base or on a hilltop, IN NO DANGER WHATSOEVER, and lob missles at foes a mile away. It takes no skill. There has to be a counter to that.

So in closing:

Cry more noob

Your clueless. Sure one can sit back and hope teamates hold lock, one can sit back and wait for the lites and mediums with a grudge. Every mech has a role in the battle and if they were so easy to play everyone would drive them and just lob missles back and forth. I own one LRM boat and it was just as challneging to learn its proper use as any other.