40 replies to this topic

[Athena Hart]

Personally, though this kind of strand popped up elsewhere and I answered there as well.. Going to use my Xbox 360 Controller (Assuming its supported) as its what I use to play most games (Works extreemly well for Champions Online and MW4). Would I use a Joystick/Throttle/Pedal Setup? Sure, If I could afford them, but those aren't exactly cheap setups.

[Damien]

Thoughts on a mouse right, thrust lever left and rudder pedals. Mouse for torso X and Y axis, Thrust for quick engine adjustments and more buttons, and pedals for fine course adjustment.

[Egomane]

My guess on why so many believe that mouse and keyboard is superior to a joystick, is simple lack of experience.

How many of the supporters for mouse and keyboard have played with a joystick since their earliest childhood? Played games like Wing Commander, X-Wing, Privateer, Mechwarrior, Comanche and many, many more simulation type games with a stick instead of m&k?

Whenever I play a game like battlefield or CoD or whatever first person shooter, then mouse and keyboard are superior. No "ifs" or "buts", it is a simple fact. But if you get into simulation type games, designed to behave like a vehicle, with restricted and sometimes even changing resistence on turning speeds, nothing can give me the precision I get with a joystick. I don't need any mental resources to do so. I just do, because I did like that for more then 30 years now.

Gamepads are my nightmare. They somehow become more and more popular, even for PC gaming. I remember back in the days I played quake on a friends console (don't know which, and I can't remember the console, possibly a dreamcast), and with auto-aiming off, I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. Why are they so popular?

@Oppi
You'll get auto-aim with the Excalibur in the late to endgame missions.
I tried to play the game with mouse and keyboard, because my new stick didn't arrive on time. It just didn't work. It didn't give me any more precision then a stick did, but required much more attention to the controls and whenever I got into a turning duell with an enemy fighter i would lose, because I had to constantly pick up the mouse to put it back at the start of the movement. The other mouse mode is just as bad, as it works much like the one in freelancer. I never got used to that as well.

[Wilhelm Kerensky]

In the olden days, before gamepads, I used a keyboard exclusively for bringing down everything (MW1 & 2).

I then tried to transition to KB/Mouse during MW3 & 4. Yeah.... Worked well for "Battlezone 2: Combat Commander", though!

After getting an X360, I got used to the less complex control schemes of Chromehounds and Armored Core V.

I say that control schemes we each know should be tested for our own affinity based on gameplay style - not everyone wants to use yours, but if it works for you, then Happy Hunting!

[Yukichan]

ill take one of these

[Ursus_Spiritus]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

"Precision" and "joystick" are mutually exclusive terms. For every one person you can find that is a master of the joystick, you'll find a hundred who think they're doing "good enough" but are consistently out-performed by people of equal or lesser skill who are using the mouse to aim. The simple fact is that aiming is a very reactionary skill, meaning you have to constantly work on input from your eyes and evaluate what you're doing in your arm, forcing constant brain updates. This means aiming is less like aiming and more like steering the reticule around, and your mental workload is greatly increased. Arm fatigue can also become a problem, as aiming requires a lot of large arm movements, compared to relatively few with a mouse. Aiming with a mouse is still unbeatable in FPS games, and when it comes down to it, Mechwarrior is an FPS.

If people want to use a joystick to control aim and torso twist, more power to them, they're electing for the 'sim' feel over actually doing what's best for the game. But it suffices to say that if I were to rank in order of control schemes which is the most effective, I'd put it like this, in order of best setup to worst:

1 - Joystick / mouse - joystick for turning and engine control (in off-hand), mouse for aiming.
2 - Mouse / keyboard - keyboard for turning and engine control, mouse for aiming.
3 - Gamepad control - left stick up/down for engine, left/right for turning, right stick for aiming.
4 - Partial HOTAS setup - throttle for engine control, joystick for aiming with twist for turning.
5 - Full HOTAS setup - throttle for engine control, joystick for aiming, pedals for turning.
6 - Simpit setup - similar to full HOTAS, but probably with buttons all over that require hands-off pushing.

Joystick / mouse is a very difficult setup to get used to, but is unquestionably the best, as it combines the precision of a mouse for aiming with the analog inputs of the joystick axis for fine turning and engine control. Proper setup is done by slaving the joystick y-axis (back/forth) to pure throttle input, so your throttle is zero when the stick is neutral, when pushed halfway forward you get 50% throttle, and all the way forward for 100%. This gives you extremely fast throttle control as well as the ability to adjust how fast you're turning, to avoid the problems of a rapid jerk left and right that you get when turning with a keyboard.

Learning curve aside, it works marvelously, with the only real drawback being the danger of arm fatigue by having to hold the throttle. I got around this by assigning a button to 100% throttle so I can go forward without my hand on the stick.

I like others would have to disagree with you on this.

I too have played MW1-4, and MWLL with a Joystick. I have also played most with a Mouse and Keyboard.

The JS offers you aspects that a M/KB do not.

[Frostiken]

Avias, on 10 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

With a mouse you can only move it so far (left or right, up or down) on your mouse pad.

Unless you never bothered to set your mouse up right, this should never be an issue. And ditch the mouse pad. Problem 90% solved.

Torso-turning inertia completely eliminates this weakness, and if I am in fact picking up my mouse, it's so fast I don't even notice it. Any 'delay' you could possibly attribute to having to pick up your mouse is ridiculous, not when you compare it to the fact that in order to transit your aim from going right to instead going left, you have to physically move your whole wrist / hand a whopping 6 inches (measured on my Thrustmaster Warthog).

In MWLL, I am able to completely transit my aim 360 degrees on the Raven with hand/wrist movement of only 2.5 inches. This is not possible on a joystick, as a joystick commands absolute incremental adjustments - failure to tip the joystick all the way will result in a slower turning speed. You have little choice, and increasing the sensitivity flat-out limits your fine-aim responsiveness.

That is BEYOND unreasonable for something that requires constant changing. The precision of such maneuvers is not required when the stick is used for steering and throttle, thus mitigating a weakness of the design.

8100d 5p4tt3r, on 10 June 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

The JS offers you aspects that a M/KB do not.

Yet nobody can conclusively say what that is, whereas I have made a rock-solid case for joystick / mouse.

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Unless you never bothered to set your mouse up right, this should never be an issue. And ditch the mouse pad. Problem 90% solved.

Torso-turning inertia completely eliminates this weakness, and if I am in fact picking up my mouse, it's so fast I don't even notice it. Any 'delay' you could possibly attribute to having to pick up your mouse is ridiculous, not when you compare it to the fact that in order to transit your aim from going right to instead going left, you have to physically move your whole wrist / hand a whopping 6 inches (measured on my Thrustmaster Warthog).

That is BEYOND unreasonable for something that requires constant changing. The precision of such maneuvers is not required when the stick is used for steering and throttle, thus mitigating a weakness of the design.

Yet nobody can conclusively say what that is, whereas I have made a rock-solid case for joystick / mouse.

If your main point is the physical effort you have to put into controlling your mech, then either you haven't read the novels or you want it to be "easy" as in super sensitive.

/facepalm

If you are suffering arm fatigue then I would highly recommend getting some exercise, or not spend hours sitting at your desk.
Frankly that fact that you bring that into the equation?

You are the piece of equilment in this equation that should be learning, adapting, adjusting to find your zero point and what works best for your hand eye control, not relying completely on the hardware and software.

The Joystick doesn't have the surface area limitations that the mouse does to begin with, not to mention even with all the new mice that are multifunction. It still isn't the same as a Joystick and throttle config, with or without peddles.

Edited by 8100d 5p4tt3r, 10 June 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[Frostiken]

8100d 5p4tt3r, on 10 June 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

If your main point is the physical effort you have to put into controlling your mech, then either you haven't read the novels or you want it to be "easy" as in super sensitive.

/facepalm

If you are suffering arm fatigue then I would highly recommend getting some exercise, or not spend hours sitting at your desk.
Frankly that fact that you bring that into the equation?

You are the piece of equilment in this equation that should be learning, adapting, adjusting to find your zero point and what works best for your hand eye control, not relying completely on the hardware and software.

You should clean up all those strawmen, it's a fire hazard.

Quote

The Joystick doesn't have the surface area limitations that the mouse does to begin with, not to mention even with all the new mice that are multifunction. It still isn't the same as a Joystick and throttle config, with or without peddles.

Yeah, you're right - it isn't the same because it's not bogging you down by over-complicating simple tasks. Ask the MWLL top-tier vets who will destroy your face apart and end every game with 25 kills and 0 deaths, the khan, and a quarter of a billion cbills in the bank, the overwhelming majority of them are using a mouse to aim. I wouldn't be surprised if this held true for MW4 as well, dodgy mouse implementation aside.

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[Skulls n Guns]

I like game pads, the issue is the sticks are too short. they should keep the top of the stick the same height and lower the bottom by a 1/2 inch. Then it would be allot better.

Anyway I plan to get Joystick/Throttle/pedals, I like things to be as interactive as possible

Also:
http://www.ebay.com/...984.m1426.l2649

[Kittygrinder]

First, MWLL is a mod of what? a first person shooter. The joystick support is modded in, therefore i expect everything to be easier in mwll on a mouse vs a joystick.

secondly, your forgetting something crucial. every person is different. Some of these guys have been playing MW games on a joystick for years, maybe even longer than youve been alive. In a proper mw game, they will kindly hand you *** to you in an mw game using a half working joystick.

[Striker1980]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

You should clean up all those strawmen, it's a fire hazard.



Yeah, you're right - it isn't the same because it's not bogging you down by over-complicating simple tasks. Ask the MWLL top-tier vets who will destroy your face apart and end every game with 25 kills and 0 deaths, the khan, and a quarter of a billion cbills in the bank, the overwhelming majority of them are using a mouse to aim. I wouldn't be surprised if this held true for MW4 as well, dodgy mouse implementation aside.

I'm not sure MWLL was anything to do with over complication of simple tasks, one of the sole reasons to use a HOTAS or Joystick is that it is intended to streamline your input stopping you from having to rely on digital inputs and instead give you all the controls you need at your fingertips and associate them with your analogue axis (at least 6 of them).

MW4 was designed specifically to be operated with a Joystick, MWLL was not. Infact I'd go so far as to say it's joystick implementation was frankly atrocious.

For instance in Mechwarrior 4 after about 5-10 mins of reading the manual then learning how to control the mech you were away as all the buttons corresponded to a logical input, (Thumb switched weapons index finger fired them).

In MWLL you needed a hell of a lot of patience and 'tech Savvy to even get the right command tied to the correct input due to there being no native joystick configuration suitable for most joysticks. (from what I experienced anyway).

I'm glad that you like playing with mouse and keyboard, may it serve you well, however I have to disagree with your assessment of a mouse being a superior input device for this style of game for the reasons stated above.

At best it's equal.

At worst its lacking about two analogue axis (Throttle and Rudder or an X axis), a range of motion limitation that ensures it always centres when moved/ gives you a fixed motion range that always corresponds to the rotation limitations of the vehicle controlled. And there is no hat function, so aiming arm mounted weapons becomes slightly more difficult as does rapidly looking around without having to hold down say a shift key.

Remember Pilots take hundreds of hours to train, however when they have learned to use a Joystick and throttle, there's no way in the world they'd give it up for say a roller ball input or a mouse-type interface, as it is simply inappropriate for controlling a complex vehicle that requires precise analogue inputs.

BTW HOTAS's don't have to be perticularly expensive, and frankley for something like Mechwarrior they may be overkill anyway, for 90% of players the game is perhaps being better suited to a simpler joystick like the Cyborg I linked in earlier which in the UK is under £20 (~$40ish). which equates to the price of a joypad as the OP referred to.

to the OP I'm sorry this went off topic, I played mechassault with a Joypad, frankly it was OK as an input device, the main limitations were that there was no fixed throttle so moving forward a great distance was an irritating pain.

Also as others have stated there is a limited range of motion possable with a Joypad, so they are better suited to 'twitch' reflex games like Modern warfare and Battlefield. A sim or a Game like Mechwarrior tend to require a very high degree of precision to hit a target at 600m away so a larger stick (Joystick) or a mouse does afford a more precise range of motion.

I hope that answers your question

Edited by Striker1980, 10 June 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[CrimsonOdyssey]

Frostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Unless you never bothered to set your mouse up right, this should never be an issue. And ditch the mouse pad. Problem 90% solved.

Torso-turning inertia completely eliminates this weakness, and if I am in fact picking up my mouse, it's so fast I don't even notice it. Any 'delay' you could possibly attribute to having to pick up your mouse is ridiculous, not when you compare it to the fact that in order to transit your aim from going right to instead going left, you have to physically move your whole wrist / hand a whopping 6 inches (measured on my Thrustmaster Warthog).

In MWLL, I am able to completely transit my aim 360 degrees on the Raven with hand/wrist movement of only 2.5 inches. This is not possible on a joystick, as a joystick commands absolute incremental adjustments - failure to tip the joystick all the way will result in a slower turning speed. You have little choice, and increasing the sensitivity flat-out limits your fine-aim responsiveness.

That is BEYOND unreasonable for something that requires constant changing. The precision of such maneuvers is not required when the stick is used for steering and throttle, thus mitigating a weakness of the design.

Yet nobody can conclusively say what that is, whereas I have made a rock-solid case for joystick / mouse.

Truthfully if you move 360 degrees in 2.5 inches with your mouse there is no possible or conceivable way you would ever be able to snipe in any game, because that sensitivity would be comparable to a 15 in Halo (for the xbox) (Unless you had an insane amount of aim assist or an aim-bot).

I haven't made a solid argument? Many people who have read my post will disagree with you on that one. With The set up i'm playing with I can't ditch the mouse pad and many other people would have the same issue. Also there is only so much desk or surface area you can play on with a mouse.

If you adjust the joystick settings you won't have to move it as far as possible in one direction to get maximum turning speed. Not to mention that there will be a turning speed cap in mechwarrior online because if there isn't, the game will be just silly.

And picking up your mouse will always put you at a disadvantage even if you are "lightning fast" because once you've done it 10 times or so you've put yourself behind by at least 3 seconds on aiming(not including over compensation). It would be difficult to over compensate with a joystick if you're used to it, because once you are, it is more muscle memory than an active thought to move.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone's play style because everyone is different, but because the game has been designed to use joysticks as the aiming interface it should be used. In the mechwarrior pods you see joysticks, the artemis system uses a joystick, And many people who play competitively use a joystick, all for aiming. It's how the game has been designed.

The game is truthfully meant to be played more like a flight simulator than an FPS. Because this is vehicle combat, It is a lot different than controlling a person like in Battlefield or CoD.

Edited by Avias, 10 June 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[Oppi]

Egomane, on 10 June 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

@Oppi
You'll get auto-aim with the Excalibur in the late to endgame missions.

I know. Already beat it with m&k, I just wanted to try if it would be more fun with a pad. It wasn't

Quote

I tried to play the game with mouse and keyboard, because my new stick didn't arrive on time. It just didn't work.

Yeah, it's a pain, but as I said, I don't have a stick at the time
And it's still better than the gamepad

[Lipot]

I plan to use my old Logitech Wingman Wireless game pad as I don't have a HOTaS to work with. Everyone will be different. Someone that has played all the way back to the original Battletech computer games, I can say that using a mouse and keyboard over a game pad/joystick is a complete choice. And background plays a big part of it. I have pilot training and for me a mouse and keyboard makes no sense. I can aim just as well with a joystick as a mouse and keyboard. It is all about how comfortable you are with the set up. Anyone that is used to using a piece of equipment for a long period of time has ways to relieve fatigue. There are games that a mouse and keyboard was the best way to play. (Descent series anyone.) Having a list of what is best to worst is only good for one person. Find your way in the end.

[headunplugged]

I don't understand how you could pull off the "circle of death" and concentrate fire on a particular limb without a joystick, too many axis to work with there, for me at least, with just a m/k. I had MS sidewinder 2 with force feedback "sigh", i gave it away recently because i didn't use it for 5+ years. There is nothing like firing the AC10 and having the feel of the kickback of the stick. Man i LOVED the Thanatos in MW4, 180°+ turning radius, AC-10, and jets packs for jumping on heads... if MWO has anything close to that i'm quitting my job.

[As8s]

If supported I'd suggest getting some rudder pedals to match up with a joystick to help with torso twisting if I recall right.

[Kenshar]

I always loved my joystick for smaller mechs and mouse and keyboard for everything else. Smaller mechs always move faster in all aspects and I always found a joystick made my actions faster but less accurate.. For larger mechs though speed really isn't a question and the accuracy always made me lean toward traditional controls.

[FactorlanP]

Yukichan, on 10 June 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

ill take one of these

Wow, the inside looks pretty much how I remember the pods, but the pods that they had at the Chicago BattleTech Center in 89/90 weren't that polished looking on the outside.

EDIT TO ADD: On second look, the interior is quite a bit different too. I don't remember so much plastic blocking the main view screen and I don't remember that many weapons select buttons on the upper right and left. I think we only had one set of buttons on each side.

Edited by FactorlanP, 10 June 2012 - 10:09 PM.

[Nacon]

WarMouse anyone? it got joystick on the side.

I'm actually wondering if I should buy two of these... Left and Right version, of course.
Might be a bit insane.