27 replies to this topic

[General Taskeen]

Expanding on the LB-X with my other posts:

Spoiler

AC's and LB-X guns need to be balanced in such a way that one is not superceded by the other with a careful, 2 birds with 1 stone approach.

AC's should be the fast, high dps weapons, while LB-X guns should be the high burst damage weapons, for bonus damage at range and close range, with a slower cool down. That way you have a clear advantage/disadvantage for using both. If an LB-X gun is given a slug like its supposed to be able to use, and can fire the same speed as an AC/10, then the AC/10 becomes obsolete just like that.

The careful balance approach involves these tweaks after much thought:

Each LB-X gun, starting with the one currently available, needs to have the spread reduced to a point where it takes advantage of the extended range, but it is still spread out and never pin-point compared to an AC/10.


The example of the new spread is against an Assault sized target. In every Mech Warrior incarnation the LB-X guns have always had their range as advantage. This needs to be taken into account, as they simply were made to "work" the way you expected them too with bonus range.


Plus the following changes:

- Damage Per Pellet increased to 1.2 (or other as needed)

• What's the point of this? Since a 'cluster' is a spread functionality by nature, like srms or lrms, for real-time translation it needs the pellets buffed to an acceptable level. With the decrease in spread, you gain also the full damage of the pellets out to 540m, although spread out, but still hitting the entirety of a target, just all over. The closer the target gets, the more pin-point bonus damage you are doing.

- Increase Cool Down to 2.75 (or other)

• What's the point of this? There needs to be a factor to balance out an LB-X version gun compared to a regular AC, and this is where the high burst damage comes in, but with slower firing compared to a fast fire AC, that doess less damage. This way if an LB-X uses a slug, its still firing slower, but it does gain pin-point, although the same damage as a normal AC round for the extra range. And thus does not supercede a regular AC.

- Decrease AC/10 Cool down to 2.25

• What's the point of this? Makes it higher DPS vs. an LB-X counter-part, as out lined with the explanation above.

Again, In every Mech Warrior incarnation the LB-X guns have always had their range as advantage and did better damage.

Other Mech game examples:

-MW3 had a stream of pellets (the total pellets hitting did more damage than normal ac's, and you could snipe with them)
-MW:LL shoots the 'canon' number of pellets from the barrel, depending on the gun, but the spread is reduced to a point where it takes advantage of each guns extended range, and the pellets do far more damage. If you shoot at a medium sized target for example, with an LB-X at 700m (the 'effective enhanced' range' of the LB 10-X in that game, the pellets all hit the target, but they are spread out, but you are still lots of damage to each section of that Mech you just shot at, at the extreme range)

MWO has essentially borrowed the 'shooting the pellets in a spread' concept from MW:LL, but did not up the damage, nor made the range any kind of advantage, even though it should have it at long range and short range.

Edited by General Taskeen, 10 July 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[CasualCat2001]

LegoPirate, on 10 July 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

first, this graph goes from 0-300, completely skipping the 270 meters where ac20 does the most damage. second, most engagements occur from under 600 meters, where the ac10 just barely begins to do more damage then the ac20. given that the ac20 only weighs 4-5 more tons (with ammo), it becomes pretty obvious why the ac10 is completely overshadowed by the 20.

that, and ERPPCS/PPCS need a heat increase to balance them out.

It is simply an axis scaling issue. The graph and the data behind the graph contains data points for 270, there is no skipping. Also the delta between all of these weapons is the same at 0 as it is at 270. It is only after 270 that it starts to change as the AC/20 damage starts to decrease.

I have no idea what the average engagement distance is, but in the world of PPCs it definitely feels like it is often > 600. A lot is probably map dependent too. I expect average engagement ranges for Alpine and Canyon are much higher than River City Night.

ETA: All ballistics seem funny in how their damage scales versus the weight. You can make a similar complaint comparing the AC/10 to the AC/5.

Edited by CasualCat2001, 10 July 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

The issue with ACs is that the AC20 rules them all. Outside of the Gauss Rifle, which is tier2 tech and an issue in and of itself, the AC20 still does more damage then all of the other ACs at their respective maximum "best" range. At 450m, the AC20 does more then the AC10. At 610m, the AC20 does more damage then the AC5. And at 750m, the AC20 does more damage then the AC2. This is all an issue due to the 3x range factor applied to Autocannons. Quite frankly, PGI needs to drop this down to +75% for energy and +150% for ACs. It would solve some of the inter-AC rivalry that I spoke about above and would lead the game to closer encounters to cut down on the lame sniping meta.

[Purlana]

Most of the time you don't want to fire your AC/20s at long range. Firing from that range you will increase your heat and eat your ammo very fast, for little effect.

Edited by Purlana, 10 July 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[Lootee]

Purlana, on 10 July 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

Most of the time you don't want to fire your AC/20s at long range. Firing from that range you will increase your heat and eat your ammo very fast, for little effect.

You can use them at PPC range and they still hit as hard as a PPC does, and they generate less heat than a PPC shot. I'm not seeing the downside.

If someone is squatting around at 540m and you got 2 AC/20s, you may as well start pumping them. You're still hitting as hard as 2 PPCs or a single AC/20. Which in my opinion is just plain wrong because the short range brawling AC/20 is now equally or even more effective at long range than weapons designed to be used at those ranges (AC/10, LB10X, Large Laser, PPC). But whatever, doubt it'll ever get fixed.

If it were up to me I'd redo the whole extended range system and make maximum ranges much shorter, and the damage fall off more rapid. The AC/20 is supposed to be the king of brawling weapons, but limited to medium laser max range. The drawback for all that damage is supposed to be a very short range, but now you got it hitting like PPCs at PPC range, completely usurping the role of the AC/10 because it hits harder at 450m than the AC/10 which is designed to be optimal at that range and the AC/20 shouldn't even be able to reach. In short, it's just whack.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 10 July 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[CasualCat2001]

Can you fire AC/20s at PPC range? Sure. Does it do similar damage? Yes. You really don't want to do that a lot though due to opportunity cost. AC/20s can run out of ammo and PPCs can't. Sure it can do 10 damage, but that's also 10 damage lost as opportunity cost. The projectile speed is also less than half of that of the PPC with some projectile drop as well.

Again all AC/s have the overlap issue where the higher cannon does more damage than the lower cannon at its best range. The AC/20 is not unique here.

Other than the Catapult and the Jagermech what mechs are even fielding 2- AC/20s? More mechs can also field the ac/10 than the ac/20 due to size constraints. To run that Jager's are running XL engines with their huge easily hit/not particularly well armored side torsos and Cats to my understanding are running really small std engines making them slow. Mechs running AC/20s in their arms basically forgo actuators and give up range of motion. Running them in the torso limits mechs to STD engines.

Those mechs are also taking a chance because dropping on Alpine suddenly makes them a lot less useful. I'd much rather have a GR or AC/10s on Alpine. There are downsides to running those setups you're just discounting them.

I could see reducing max range for all autocannons some, but the initial suggestion seems too extreme. There should be some overlap in the cannons. It shouldn't be a case where the 20 is hitting zero damage while the 10 is still in optimal range.

ETA: I would like to see the LBX fixed/changed, and I like the canister suggestion and as I understand it that is how it is described in lore anyhow.

Edited by CasualCat2001, 11 July 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[CancR]

Another I like X so buff X and I don't like Y so nerf Y. Don't actually look at the weapon it's self and see what might be improved..No..Nerf everything around you instead.

[Corvus Antaka]

CancR, on 11 July 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

Another I like X so buff X and I don't like Y so nerf Y. Don't actually look at the weapon it's self and see what might be improved..No..Nerf everything around you instead.

Actually I love the Ac/20

But, I realize it is OP compared to every other AC on the field right now because it's range allowance is far too generous for a brawling gun.

In theory if it's range was cut significantly it could take a recycle timer buff, thus giving brawlers more DPS in close while keeping them from being the only smart choice on the field.