52 replies to this topic

[Unbound Inferno]

That's about it. A ton of matches, any number of loadout mixes and I'ts pretty obvious.

I get more damage from 6x LRM5 on my A1 than I ever got with 2x LRM20 on my C4.


That damndable LRM spread has made loading the larger launchers the worst idea. The tubes makes all the difference - and right now that gets the Stalker into a pretty close sweet spot forcing LRM10 sizes.


That needs to be fixed. You shouldn't be making it so the entire point of a larger launcher is completely useless.



And trust me, I've tried alot. The most interesting by far is how close in comparable damage a LRM50 is to a LRM30 on my A1 thanks to that.


6x LRM5 is the most reliable killing power I've found. Impressively enough staggering fire when there is no AMS is crazy good even against fast mechs.
4x LRM10 2x LRM5 is impressive against assaults due to size, but its moot against anything smaller.
4x LRM10 itself isn't that bad, but wasn't good against fast mechs at all.
2x LRM15 2x LRM5 was interesting, but ineffective.
2x LRM20 2x LRM5 was a wast of time with a lack of ammo on the Catapults.
2x LRM20 looked good, but didn't have a punch worth it on the C4. Acted like the 2x LRM15 2x LRM5 on the C1 and A1 but with separate volleys.


And even though the A1 is handicapped in close range thanks to it, its mid-long range game was impressive so long as I kept with a buddy or two. Keeping a moderate engine and JJs its options for positions are scary, although I toyed with less ammo and no JJs for a ton of speed the lack of JJs really hurt it.



But still, something should be done, as its pointless as hell that the larger launcher is a useless waste in comparison.

[Roland]

Quote

That needs to be fixed. You shouldn't be making it so the entire point of a larger launcher is completely useless.

Well, the point of the large launcher in the current game is that it only takes up 1 hardpoint.

That is, you can't load 6 LRM5's onto your C4... only the A1 can do that, and it pays the price of not having any other hardpoints.

Having the smaller launchers be more effective per missile than the large ones could actually provide a way to make smaller numbers of missiles effective, while not making large numbers of missiles overpowered.

[Modo44]

Any LRM is good without AMS, ECM, or when the enemies choose to ignore the free kill. No news there.

Edited by Modo44, 10 July 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[El Bandito]

Here is one counter argument--heat. Faster fire rate = faster heat buildup.
Dual LRM15 have heat of 10. Hexa LRM5 have heat of 12--with no TAG since it has to be an A1.

It also seemed to me that boating more of the same sized launcher will add more heat than usual. I overheated when using Penta LRM10 bit faster than Quad LRM10 + Dual LRM5 in my A1, when it should have same heat.

Another argument is payload. I can remove 5-7% from Assaults using my LRM50 A1 build. How many % can you remove using 6xLRM5?

Edited by El Bandito, 10 July 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[Kanatta Jing]

It's also the firing rate and tonnage. The A1 does as much with 30 tubes as the C2 does with 40 with more room left over for ammo.

It's just that the LRM A1 can't live outside of organized play.

[Unbound Inferno]

Roland, on 10 July 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Well, the point of the large launcher in the current game is that it only takes up 1 hardpoint.

That is, you can't load 6 LRM5's onto your C4... only the A1 can do that, and it pays the price of not having any other hardpoints.

Having the smaller launchers be more effective per missile than the large ones could actually provide a way to make smaller numbers of missiles effective, while not making large numbers of missiles overpowered.

However that isn't what you'd considered balanced by needing to gimp a mech just to have something that appears to be damage.

Kanatta Jing, on 10 July 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

It's also the firing rate and tonnage. The A1 does as much with 30 tubes as the C2 does with 40 with more room left over for ammo.

It's just that the LRM A1 can't live outside of organized play.

Very true. I've been privileged on some matches to really showcase what 1960 ammo can do with that. Damn frightening on some games.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 10 July 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm not sure which one is truly better (I think the C4 benefits from mounting a TAG laser), I can say the 6 LRM5s is fun. Nothing is as amusing as watching a waterfall of LRMs rain down on a poor helpless mech.

Problem is, a good weapon lock can be hard to come by as a PUG. I like the setup of 6 LRM5s, but the frustration seems to out weigh the amusement for me.

[El Bandito]

Kanatta Jing, on 10 July 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

It's also the firing rate and tonnage. The A1 does as much with 30 tubes as the C2 does with 40 with more room left over for ammo. It's just that the LRM A1 can't live outside of organized play.

Not true in my case. I used LRM50 A1 for 2 days in solodrops only.

Here is pre-LRM stats.


Here is post-LRM stats.


You will notice that while using LRM A1, I had 10 wins vs. 2 losses and 25 kills vs. 2 deaths. Incredible or luck?

Edited by El Bandito, 10 July 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[Unbound Inferno]

El Bandito, on 10 July 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Here is one counter argument--heat.

Dual LRM15 have heat of 10. Hexa LRM5 have heat of 12--with no TAG since it has to be an A1.

It also seemed to me that boating more of the same sized launcher will add more heat than usual. I overheated when using Penta LRM10 bit faster than Quad LRM10 + Dual LRM5 in my A1, when it should have same heat.

Another argument is payload. I can remove 5-7% from Assaults using my LRM50 A1 build. How many % can you remove using 6xLRM5?

I need to pay attention. I've been observing volley and kills more than the individual damage.

I imagine a bit less, but they seem to core pretty much the same rate.

[Ken Fury]

So your saying the smaller launcher actually have a role. That's shocking.

[Roland]

In addition to being hotter than the larger launchers, the smaller launchers will have an increased cost if you choose to run Artemis, right? 2 15's only costs 2 tons and 2 slots to artemis, but 6 5's costs 6 tons and 6 slots, doesn't it? A ton and a slot per launcher?

[Corvus Antaka]

while this could potentially be an issue worth looking into, given current hardpoints and wieght etc a lot of mechs still benefit from taking 1 lrm 20 over 4 5's. adding boating penalties to the lrm 5 beyond 4 launcher could help resolve this issue.

[El Bandito]

Roland, on 10 July 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

In addition to being hotter than the larger launchers, the smaller launchers will have an increased cost if you choose to run Artemis, right? 2 15's only costs 2 tons and 2 slots to artemis, but 6 5's costs 6 tons and 6 slots, doesn't it? A ton and a slot per launcher?

You don't really need Artemis for LRM5 and LRM10 since they deal very concentrated damage. I stripped the Artemis off of my A1 when I converted it from a Streakcat to LRMcat since I only use LRM5s and LRM10s--to make room for more ammo.

However, Artemis is still nice to have if there is room for it, since it provides faster lock bonus, even outside of line-of-sight.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 July 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Kanatta Jing]

Roland, on 10 July 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

In addition to being hotter than the larger launchers, the smaller launchers will have an increased cost if you choose to run Artemis, right? 2 15's only costs 2 tons and 2 slots to artemis, but 6 5's costs 6 tons and 6 slots, doesn't it? A ton and a slot per launcher?

Yeah don't do that.

[Unbound Inferno]

El Bandito, on 10 July 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

You don't really need Artemis for LRM5 and LRM10 since they deal very concentrated damage. I stripped the Artemis off of my A1 when I converted it from a Streakcat to LRMcat since I only use LRM5s and LRM10s. However, Artemis is still nice to have since it provides faster lock bonus, even outside of line-of-sight.

Actually you do. Since there's on guarantee of a TAG the lock speed makes all the difference. The spread change is negligible I admit.

[Unbound Inferno]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 July 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

while this could potentially be an issue worth looking into, given current hardpoints and wieght etc a lot of mechs still benefit from taking 1 lrm 20 over 4 5's. adding boating penalties to the lrm 5 beyond 4 launcher could help resolve this issue.

Yeah, but I don't think reworking hardpoints is the solution.

The basic mechanics that dictate the LRMs is the issue here.

In my sig I've pointed out a way to stagger fire the LRMs to attain the higher damage and averages so there isn't a penalty on the larger launcher, making it more uniform without really making boats OP thanks to AMS. At least that's what I'd want as it could solve this without needing to get really messy with the spread issue.


The alternative is the streak pathing they talked about, but that has another issue of making LRMs even less effective as the spread damage wouldn't lead to CT kills making more lean towards those PPC/Gauss again.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Keep in mind this isn't a smaller launcher having a role.

I don't use Catapults, but my understanding, is if you shoot LRM 5's like this, they come out in one volley correct?

The problem is if you shoot a SINGLE LRM 5 or if you were to chain fire 6 LRM 5's a single AMS would eat them alive.

A double AMS would make it not worth firing.

Unless I'm understanding wrong as I said.

[Unbound Inferno]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 July 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Keep in mind this isn't a smaller launcher having a role.

I don't use Catapults, but my understanding, is if you shoot LRM 5's like this, they come out in one volley correct?

The problem is if you shoot a SINGLE LRM 5 or if you were to chain fire 6 LRM 5's a single AMS would eat them alive.

A double AMS would make it not worth firing.

Unless I'm understanding wrong as I said.

True, and you have it correct.

I can fire a LRM30 or stagger volleys of 5.

A single AMS can handle a LRM5 actually. Its why the Stalker works since the two LRM10 volley breaks through.

The LRM50 is a thing of madness on a A1 - I have not met an AMS cover that can reduce that damage enough.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 10 July 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Roland]

Unbound Inferno, on 10 July 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

The LRM50 is a thing of madness on a A1 - I have not met an AMS cover that can reduce that damage enough.

Try running LRM 90 if you want to see hillarity.

It's a stupid mech, and not really that viable due to the sacrifices you need to make, but loading up 6 LRM15's onto an A1 results in a volley that, when it hits a mech, looks like the freaking sun fell out of the sky onto it.

[Unbound Inferno]

Roland, on 10 July 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Try running LRM 90 if you want to see hillarity.

It's a stupid mech, and not really that viable due to the sacrifices you need to make, but loading up 6 LRM15's onto an A1 results in a volley that, when it hits a mech, looks like the freaking sun fell out of the sky onto it.

Never thought of that due to the ineffective design. I might have to just to see how to do it.


EDIT: The plan?

No Artemis
6x LRM15 - spread's way too wide, but looks crazy I think.
Armor is stripped to a mere 239 so I can manage 4 tons ammo with a XL170 engine

Glass cannon I guess is an apt description.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 10 July 2013 - 11:01 AM.