60 replies to this topic

[Windsaw]

Question:
So far you (ideally) had to play against one enemy mech.
In 12vs12 you (ideally) still have to play against one enemy mech.

What do you need the extra ammo for?
If it were 4vs8 or 8vs12 I would understand that one team would need more ammo.

[Ralgas]

3 ton's ammo for any weapon is currently overkill for an 8v8 match, if you cant scratch out that extra ton to sort the added match length the mech is boating too hard, take some smaller guns!!

[Riptor]

The only argument in favor of more ammo per ton in this scenario is to keep the attractivenes of ballistic weapons atleast a little bit on par with PPCs...

So far the PPCs have all the advantage (heavy damage and range) of ballistics without any of the drawbacks (ammo and ammo explosions, less slots then ac 10 and 20.. lighter then those two and most importantly the availability of energy hardpoints compared to balistics)

Otherwise it has to be seen if 12 vs 12 will infact be shorter game time wise or longer... personaly i believe the games to get alot shorter with how the current meta goes.

[jakucha]

I stock just enough that I rarely run out of most ballistics in the builds I use despite doing decent damage, so I doubt this will bug me too much.

Edited by jakucha, 11 July 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[Zerberus]

Why do syou need more ammo? Because the four extra players on YOUR team are all dropping with no weapons and suiciding instantly? And you somehow know for a fact that you will need more, even though you`ve never played a single 12v12 MWO round?

Because what you`re basically saying, even if you don`t realize it, is "Everyone else sucks so bad that I now have to kill 12 mechs all by myself instead of 8, because there`s still nobody else on my team scoring damage and making kills. Please give me more ammo."

Here`s a novel idea: How about actually testing it in todays PTR rounds and then asking for a change?? I know, It doesn`t sound like something most MWO Forumwarriors are capable of, but just try it.

Edited by Zerberus, 11 July 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[Sybreed]

xengk, on 10 July 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

When they do show up, yes.
30 tubes LRMboat using the 3C or 5N.

2xLRM 15 is a boat now?

[PEEFsmash]

I can't believe that people are forgetting that although there will be more enemies, there will also be more friendlies to kill them...You don't need any more ammo.

[Mackman]

Just curious... it seems that the obvious solution right now would be to just switch out your ballistics for PPC's. If there is an ammo shortage, or at least the perception of an ammo shortage, than many people won't bother with ballistics at all, and the game will be filled with even more PPC's.

[Strum Wealh]

Mackman, on 11 July 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Just curious... it seems that the obvious solution right now would be to just switch out your ballistics for PPC's. If there is an ammo shortage, or at least the perception of an ammo shortage, than many people won't bother with ballistics at all, and the game will be filled with even more PPC's.

And part of the solution to that is to push the heat on the PPC family back up to the BT values (10 heat/salvo for standard PPCs and 15 heat/salvo for ER-PPCs).

[Sprouticus]

0okami, on 10 July 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

You dont need more ammo in any way...

Why?

Well sure there are 4 more enemy mechs that needs shooting at, buuuut you also have 4 more friendlies who can help with that.

You were never supposed to be ¨Rambo Mac Mech¨ and take on the entire enemy team by yourself.
To be honest I even hope that we will eventually get to see more than 12v12 just to make it even less likely that one or two people can carry an entire fight.

Plus the ammo ¨problems¨ you seem to point out will make energy weapons more liked which is a great thing since that will make heat matter alot more in this game.

0okami, on 10 July 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

You dont need more ammo in any way...

Why?

Well sure there are 4 more enemy mechs that needs shooting at, buuuut you also have 4 more friendlies who can help with that.

You were never supposed to be ¨Rambo Mac Mech¨ and take on the entire enemy team by yourself.
To be honest I even hope that we will eventually get to see more than 12v12 just to make it even less likely that one or two people can carry an entire fight.

Plus the ammo ¨problems¨ you seem to point out will make energy weapons more liked which is a great thing since that will make heat matter alot more in this game.

This.

[Syrkres]

A boating we will go, a boating we will go, hi heat a PPC goes, a boating we will go...

j/k, though maybe for testing to show how imbalanced things are...

Edited by Syrkres, 11 July 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

So...to sum up...

The OP puts the case that Ballistic weapons will need more shots because they will need to fire over a longer period of time. This, by logical definition, would extend to Missile weapons as well, as they, too will need to fire over the same increased period of time. And Energy Weapons would also need a reduction in heat due to their need to fire over the same increased period (without a reduction in fire rate, which is what the OP is basically claiming should be avoided).

Of course, one of the perplexing things about this is that running out of ammo would seem to -enhance- the game according to the playerbase who have complained from Day One about "LRM Online" or "Gausscat Online", as these weapons would not be able to be fired as often, reducing the number of weapons being unloaded. So, if reducing the number of these weapons being fired is a good thing, how then can it be justified that increasing the number of shots to avoid this is -also- a good thing? Both cannot be correct, as they contradict each other.

All of this is moot, however, as other posters have correctly noted that the need for firing more is countered by having more weapons available to use (the additional mechs on your own side) with their own supply of additional ammo. In short, the 4 extra mechs on the enemy side are dealt with by the four extra mechs on your side, requiring no extra shots from your mech to take out. Thus the entire argument is moot, unless the OP is claiming they fight all their battles isolated from their team against all of the other mechs on the other team. In this case, I would advise the problem doesn't rest on the ammo load available.

[Lugh]

Windsaw, on 10 July 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Question:
So far you (ideally) had to play against one enemy mech.
In 12vs12 you (ideally) still have to play against one enemy mech.

What do you need the extra ammo for?
If it were 4vs8 or 8vs12 I would understand that one team would need more ammo.

And to properly balance clans you really should account for fewer v more numbers...

The ammo using ACs are already ~25% short on what they should have received because of the armor buff...

[Sephlock]

Windsaw, on 10 July 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Question:
So far you (ideally) had to play against one enemy mech.
In 12vs12 you (ideally) still have to play against one enemy mech.

What do you need the extra ammo for?

You'll never reach the rank of Star Colonel with that attitude...

[Sephlock]

Btw, while I do tend to agree with the naysayers (we should wait and see- although my heart aches for the LBX), I also find myself wondering whether any of them have ever pugged before...

[xengk]

Sybreed, on 11 July 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

2xLRM 15 is a boat now?

If they pack nothing but ALRM30(6 or 7 tons of ammo), a Tag and 1 Mlaz, then yes it is a boat.
Worst part is when they actually run out of ammo without killing anyone and have to sneak to cap enemy base.

[Sybreed]

xengk, on 11 July 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

If they pack nothing but ALRM30(6 or 7 tons of ammo), a Tag and 1 Mlaz, then yes it is a boat.
Worst part is when they actually run out of ammo without killing anyone and have to sneak to cap enemy base.

I'm using the stock loadout

Yeah, I know, NARC is a total waste...

[XX Sulla XX]

It could happen some times that you would need more amo. Some times even now when facing a bad team with not very good people on my team eathier. I can run out of damage when having to kill most of the other mechs myself. But this mainly happened when I lower on the elo rankings. It hardly ever happens now. I cant remember the last time I got 7 kills.

[Bhael Fire]

Played 12 vs 12 on the test server today...

Did just fine with 6 tons of AC/20 ammo. Played several winning matches without dying and had leftover ammo each time.

However, it was very tight and I had to conserve ammo, being much more careful with my shots. For those that didn't get to play in today's test, OMFG...brutality awaits.

[xengk]

Bhael Fire, on 11 July 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Played 12 vs 12 on the test server today...

Did just fine with 6 tons of AC/20 ammo. Played several winning matches without dying and had leftover ammo each time.

However, it was very tight and I had to conserve ammo, being much more careful with my shots. For those that didn't get to play in today's test, OMFG...brutality awaits.

Its like a meat/mech grinder in there.