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For the good of the game, limit the mechlab.


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#1 Frostiken

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:13 AM

I'm one of those guys who'd rather not have a mechlab, as the damage it does to a game usually easily outweighs the good. While players like customization, all the flavor of individual mechs and the interesting quirks of a design go down the tubes the second a mech goes into the lab. I think a compromise could be reached, but from what I've seen / heard about the mechlab, it's pretty free-form. And that makes me sad.

Let me preface this by saying that I do think there should be a 'testing' range where you can run around and shoot some very basic bots to test out a design, as this would making using the mechlab somewhat less risky, but this would also be a great feature to ensure you aren't about to drop a cool 10 million CBills for a mech that's good on paper but awful in practice.

Anyway, on to random constructive complaining about things nobody is clear on:

[ CASH ]
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From the developer Q&A 5, it's heavily implied that mechlab changes are free. I adamantly disagree with this. If there was a testing mode to try out a design, which would remove the 'risk' from a mechlab configuration, I think any and every change you make in the mechlab should cost money, proportional to how much you're changing it. Slotting an ERPPC into a space that used to hold a small laser should cost you a considerable amount for a 'refit' fee. Changing out your engine should be tremendously expensive.

I do not agree that players should be able to freely mix-and-match anything they want in the mechlab. Not only is this bad from a business perspective, as in the developer Q&A this was spoken of in the context of being too cheap to buy new guns, so he just recycles the old ones. By giving us a CBills sink for the price of mech customization, you've created a way to not only drain money out of the economy, but to put the brakes on how extremely a mech can be customized. There ought to be limits to these freedoms, and currently it sounds like there are none.

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Another thing that was mentioned was that hardpoints only count towards the number of weapons you can put in there, not the size. Theoretically, with enough crit space, you could replace a single small laser with a trio of ER large lasers. MWLL has their system planned out to limit how far in size weapons can be changed. My stance is that for a given variant, how much you can change out a weapon system should be limited for Battlemechs (Omnimechs are a different matter). For example, the HBK-4G could change out his AC/20 for an AC/10 and thus assume the -4H model, but not an AC/5, as that would require purchasing the variant with an AC/5, the HBK-4N.

I believe these limits to be necessary to prevent 'over-boating' and retaining some flavor of individual mechs. Players should be able to expect certain mech variant to behave in roughly the same way - an HBK-4G will have heavy-bore ballistics. In this way, you would not be able to come across a Hunchback sporting dual ER-PPCs in the arms. There are no stock variants of the Hunchback that mount even so much as a large laser on it, least of all in the arms, so to retain that flavor, I'd like to see size limits of that sort implemented. Note that this is a Battlemech restriction, not Omnimech - more on that later.

Again, this makes sense from a business standpoint. We can currently see that the HBK-4G, in the mechlab, can mount 6 energy weapons in the arms. The Swayback can carry 8 medium lasers. Theoretically, there is almost no advantage to be had in purchasing the Swayback as you would only get the luxury of two more lasers, at the expense of having almost all of them crammed into one rather easy-to-destroy location. Why would I expend the money for that, when I could split 3 lasers each into the arms, making them somewhat less vulnerable (and easier to aim by virtue of the independent arm reticule)? I'm unsure what the HBK-4G's center torso consists of, but there *is* supposed to be a small laser there - I'm inclined to believe you could probably cram two more medium lasers into the center - and thus you have made a Swayback, without the massive purchase price of a new chassis, and much more survivable. If you had bought the Swayback, you have no option of adding ballistics, making it the inferior chassis.

MWLL is adapting a similar system for not only cosmetic reasons, but specifically to limit what can be put where, and keep the flavor between mech designs. If you were free to put any weapons wherever, with only a very basic hardpoint limit like MWO seems to have now, it almost removes the point to even buy other chassis in a similar weight class. If I can simply make one chassis a complete Frankenmech and change the engine, armor, and all the weapons, and end up with a differently-shaped-but-functionally-identical mech, what's the point of even having different chassis to pick from?

By limiting how many weapons and the size of which can go into a hardpoint, you can retain some of the purity of a mech variant, thus encouraging people who want a laser-boat Hunchback to buy that variant, which equates to potentially more money for PGI.

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I believe consideration is being made to this already, but I personally do not want to see the MWLL-syndrome, where the vast majority of mechs are stomping around with a massive array of electronic goodies. I don't agree with the way MW4 handled it, but I agree with the principle, that certain chassis are simply built with the proper hardware to mount and cool electronic warfare suites and sensor probes, and others are not. A Raven should have lots of space and available functionality to mount all kinds of extra accessories by way of hardpoints, and a mech that really doesn't (Hunchback) would be extremely limited in what it can put on there. This could fit in with the same size limits - an ECM suite is too "big" for a normal mech to strap in, not unless it was specially built to hold one, but with "small" equipment slots, almost any mech could mount something smaller like a C3 computer or something along those lines.

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Pursuant to the section on why we need more restrictive hardpoint limits, I'd also like to see a range of limits for non-weapon customization of mechs. If you look across the chassis canon variants, you will see very, very few Battlemechs make large changes to armor and engine ratings. As the entire point of this post is to preserve the flavor of an individual chassis, I would like to see a range limitation put on how much armor can be adjusted, and how much engines can be changed. You would not be able to simply slot a Viper engine into a Honda Accord, not without making massive structural changes, as it simply won't fit. Too much was built into the chassis *around* the engine that was built to be put in there. One should not be able to simply jack out the existing fusion engine and stick one 50% larger in, not without expecting to gut the ENTIRE mech and rebuild all its internal hardware from scratch. The only time such an overhaul should be accepted is upgrading an engine to XL (with an absolutely jaw-dropping cost associated with it).

To give a rough example, one would not be allowed to suddenly take a mech that is known for classically weak armor and boost it to a full complement of ferro fibrous. You should expect to not see a 3/6 Hunchback suddenly capable of hauling *** around at 6/9. A simple +- percentage tied to the engine and armor as limits on adjustment, to allow mechs to be slightly customized within the reasonable limits you see on the canon variants, without ending up acting like a completely different mech. Again, this is to retain some of the flavor of a chassis and encourage people to buy others that fit what they're looking for, without making the Mechlab a stand-in for purchasing new chassis.

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This isn't too much of an issue now, but it will be at some point. I'd like to see Clan weapons limited to Omnimechs, unable to be bolted on to IS mechs, and IS weaponry completely incompatible with Clantech, so no heavy gauss Timberwolves. This is compliant with TT rules, so I expect this to happen. I won't harp on this one too much.

The other half of the equation are Omnimechs and Battlemechs. True to the lore, I'd like to see Omnimechs have hardlocked base chassis. You cannot change engine or armor ratings, full stop. However, this limited flexibility could be made up by allowing Omnimechs to be able to more freely mount weaponry in the arms (and the arms alone). Omnitech is classiclly lauded for its ability to allow a mech to stop in and simply swap out arms for another, so to that end, it would make sense to me to allow Omnis more freedom in their hardpoints and hardpoint sizes, with the disadvantage that this firepower would mostly be concentrated in easier-to-destroy arms. Additionally, modifying Omnimechs should simply be more expensive in general, as the technology requirements of working with Omnitech pods is simply too extreme and new to have had time to get cheap.

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Finally, I think there should be limits on how often a mech can visit the Mechlab. Ideally, your mech should be down for a 'refit time', especially Battlemechs, that require time to pass in the realtime before it can be used in battle. Rather, I'd prefer to see a timer for how often a mech can visit the Mechlab and be adjusted, based on how extreme the adjustments really are. Bringing the mech back to the mechlab too soon will drive costs up considerably, relative to how little time has passed since your previous visit. If you make tremendous changes to the mech, you may not be able to visit the 'lab again without incurring a hefty price hike for several days. Moving some medium lasers around might not boost the timer very much - changing out the engine, replacing a major weapon system, and adjusting armor values would drive it way up.

Again, this is best for the gameplay - it encourages people to pick and stick with designs, rather than simply chasing 'flavor of the week' designs. Additionally, again, this drives business in the direction of PGI by providing a CBill sink and encouraging people to expand their mech repertoire, rather than simply stripping weapons from one mech and bolting them on another.




I believe that about covers it. I appreciate the added player experience a Mechlab brings, but I vehemently disagree with its standard implementation we've seen to date, where every little feature of a mech can be adjusted. Not only do I believe this is bad for gameplay, but it's bad for variety, and potentially bad for business. Ultimately I think mechlabs do more harm than good, and I think a player's desire for complete freedom to turn any mech into a Clan Heavy Laser carrier is outweighed by the necessity to make a balanced, diverse game that encourages variety.

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 09:13 AM.


#2 Xantars

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:21 AM

SLAPS DOWN A BIG VETO STAMP ...... Nope I dont like it Wait till you get into game before you start making you wild *** guesses about what you think there is and what you want Please...

Edited by Xantars, 10 June 2012 - 09:21 AM.


#3 Kazzamo

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:23 AM

You do have to admit that critical slots + limited number and type of weapon hard points does make MWO have less customization than past titles at least.

#4 Hawkeye 72

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:27 AM

lol no?

Way too long a read for what I can guess will be a very unpopular idea. Customization creates character flavor, and has always been a part of the BT/MW universe (except Mechassault, and we all know how that went over)

I swear these forums get crazier every minute.

*Looks trollish, but then you realize you wrote the equivalent of a research paper on the subject...*

Edited by Hawkeye 72, 10 June 2012 - 09:30 AM.


#5 UBCslayer

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:28 AM

more mechlab options the better in my opinion.

#6 Xandre Blackheart

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:32 AM

There are already hardpoints. One of the biggest draws for mech warrior games IS the ability to customize your loadouts and come up with novel desgins. That's the ENDGAME. Why would you want to nerf the endgame before anyone even gets there?

Hard points are more than enough limitation to ensure that everyone doesn't pick the same chassis.

#7 TripleHex

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:35 AM

I'm inclined to agree with Hawkeye 72... customization is a part of the BT/MW universe, both canon-wise and non-canon-wise. From the canon perspective, I can remember a billion times when I read something about some character piloting either a jury-rigged mech or else a specially customized one. From the non-canon perspective, it's MUCH harder to program into the game ALL of the mechs plus ALL of their variants... especially in the timeframe they are looking at releasing the game in.

Edit: this does NOT mean I don't WANT to see all/most of the mechs and variants in the game, just that it'll be difficult to do!

#8 Frostiken

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:40 AM

Right, so those of you pooh-poohing a post obviously none of you read...

Please, pray tell how exactly do you think PGI is going to make any money with the almost-limitless customization we're currently offered? As I pointed out, the HBK-4G (standard Hunchback) is a different variant than the Swayback. The idea is that if you want to laser things, you buy the Swayback variant. However, it's easy to see that with the current mechlab setup, you can easily change the HBK-4G into a slightly-differently setup Swayback (I would actually say it's superior, as it spreads out the lasers more, thus making the right torso no longer a liability). So why would anyone ever actually spend CBills (and thus real money) on a variant they can simply, for free, change in the Mechlab?

This game isn't going to survive to the Clan invasion if nobody's giving PGI money, you realize that, right?


This is not me "making you wild *** guesses about what you think there is". All of this is based off of what was seen in the mechlab video and what the developers have said themselves. Someone conducting an interview even specifically asked about limiting how huge of a weapon you could put into a hardpoint, and he was told 'no', meaning a 3-hardpoint limit means you can put only 3 small lasers, or 3 CERPPCs.

Edited by Frostiken, 10 June 2012 - 09:42 AM.


#9 Xandre Blackheart

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:41 AM

You do realize it costs you c-bills to customize... and you can buy those with cash right?

#10 Frostiken

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:44 AM

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 10 June 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

You do realize it costs you c-bills to customize... and you can buy those with cash right?

Not according to the devs. In the Q&A, one of them outright said he just goes into the mechlab and moves weapons from chassis to chassis so he doesn't have to buy new weapons. This implies that the cost is free.

The Mechlab video confirms it, the only time he spent money was to buy new weapons. Moving things around was completely free, and no cost seemed to be associated with the act of customizing the chassis in the first place.

#11 Vollstrecker

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:45 AM

I'll be honest and say that I didn't read the whole post, but I had a similar idea a while back and had to dismiss it.

I'm appreciative of the stock designs and canon variants, and people really can be assured that there's a design out there for everyone's playstyle if minor tweaks are allowed, however the point is that we have 12 mechs right now. This would only really work if all designs were available at launch.

I also remember my original days with Mechwarrior and Battletech, the customization is what drew me in. After a while of making min/maxed deathmachines, I came to realize that destroying everything with an ubermech is boring and moved back to the stock designs to discover that it's actually more fun to work around the shortcomings of the stock designs.

I think the hardpoint system they came up with is a good compromise between being able to completely refit a mech and needing different chassis. Maybe they'll add a 'Canon Only' game mode at some point, who knows?

#12 Xandre Blackheart

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:46 AM

View PostFrostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Not according to the devs. In the Q&A, one of them outright said he just goes into the mechlab and moves weapons from chassis to chassis so he doesn't have to buy new weapons. This implies that the cost is free.

The Mechlab video confirms it, the only time he spent money was to buy new weapons. Moving things around was completely free, and no cost seemed to be associated with the act of customizing the chassis in the first place.


Well that makes no sense. You have to pay a mech tech to unbolt the thing and wire it back up. There should be a minimal (and I mean minimal) cost to move things around. Comparable to the repair costs.

I'd not be against something like that. But are you sure that's not just how it's currently working in beta?

Edited by Xandre Blackheart, 10 June 2012 - 09:48 AM.


#13 Hawkeye 72

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:47 AM

View PostFrostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

meaning a 3-hardpoint limit means you can put only 3 small lasers, or 3 CERPPCs.


except that is a difference of 1.5 tons to 21 tons and massive amounts of heat, which kinda negates any advantage as well as ur point lol

People bough horse armor for Elder Scrolls IV, and still were six years after its release, and it is highly regarded as the worst DLC ever

Pretty sure people will buy the variants that we can also earn just by playing the game

#14 HighlandWolf

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:50 AM

Simply put, wouldnt be battletech or even mechwarrior without an ability to customise your mech to SOME degree..yes there are varients..but even then in the BT universe mech owners tinkered with their mechs..changing things and modifying things..so really there HAS to be some in the game..now we'll see how much is too much after the game has been out a bit

#15 Hawkeye 72

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:50 AM

View PostFrostiken, on 10 June 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Not according to the devs. In the Q&A, one of them outright said he just goes into the mechlab and moves weapons from chassis to chassis so he doesn't have to buy new weapons. This implies that the cost is free.

The Mechlab video confirms it, the only time he spent money was to buy new weapons. Moving things around was completely free, and no cost seemed to be associated with the act of customizing the chassis in the first place.



That is also an early build and was more for demonstration purposes. And that dev was Garth and he said he merely swapped weapons between variants to save money on not having to buy new weapons. He never said the process was free

#16 Torcip

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:50 AM

I'm not quite sure I understood what you were trying to get at, but it sounds like you want to make the Mechlab so expensive and time consuming that no one is really going to use it and all you're going to see is stock mechs. There already is a c-bill sink, mech repairs, and making the mechlab take real time to make changes is just making the game way to unfriendly.

#17 Blackie Flawless

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:52 AM

I agree with Frostiken. The best thing in tabletop BT is that you know what to expect from your and your opponent's mechs just by looking at the minis. Also the different variants are there to give some element of surprise to the game, but you don't have to guess every time an opponent twists his torso to your mech.

#18 Vollstrecker

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:52 AM

View PostXandre Blackheart, on 10 June 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Well that makes no sense. You have to pay a mech tech to unbolt the thing and wire it back up. There should be a minimal (and I mean minimal) cost to move things around. Comparable to the repair costs.


Not quite, these are not Omnimechs. You're not removing a pod and simply adding a different one, we're swapping out components that are "hard-wired" into the system.

Imagine taking the 4-cylinder engine out of a sedan and fitting in an 8-cylinder. You have to completely realign all of the hoses, connections, wiring, and everything. You're basically redoing the entire engine compartment with a custom-fit job. This is extremely time-intensive and expensive since you need amazing techs to do it.

#19 Oppi

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:53 AM

View PostXantars, on 10 June 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

SLAPS DOWN A BIG VETO STAMP ...... Nope I dont like it Wait till you get into game before you start making you wild *** guesses about what you think there is and what you want Please...


Person 1 writes a long, thoughtful post explaining his opinion on the matter and listing a lot of arguments to back it up.
Person 2 plainly states "I don't like it because I don't like it".

I certainly know who has my backup ...


That said, I entirely agree with the OP, and I am going to play following these rules, even if it proofs to be a disadvantage ingame. If everybody did so, not only would it improve variety, but it would also make the battlefields of MWO more alike to those I know from the BT novels I've been reading since I was a 10 y.o. boy, which is by far the most important point to me.



Quote

Customization creates character flavor,


Customization makes all chassis of a certain weight class equal on the long run (because an "optimal" loadout or a small number of "optimal" loadouts will be found sooner or later). This is the exact opposite of character flavor and diversity.

Edited by Oppi, 10 June 2012 - 09:58 AM.


#20 Scrapper Allorna

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:55 AM

I just do not understand why someone would want to limit themselves before they have actually played... thats kinda like cutting off your (censored) before ever getting use of it.





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