51 replies to this topic

[VikingFarmer]

As i have said above I do not completely disagree with the complaints on high alpha builds. My whole point is, people are not willing to learn how to use terrain, tactics and their own mechs strengths and weaknesses against opponents. What i posted is not a end all be all to the problem of alpha and pin point shooting, but before people constantly ***** about things they should at least be skilled at the game.

soarra, on 11 July 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

play more and get your w/l up a bit and see what happens with some of these alpha builds..

This is not constructive nor needed. My win loss is plenty fine thank you.

And to you bill. I do have some cheese mechs and i run them sometimes but for the last couple of patches i've been just running whats fun. My heavy metal is a 1.82 kdr, its a 2erppc,2 ac2 build. My misery is at 2 kdr, and it goes between guass and 5 medium lasers and just a 5 large laser build. My stalker 3f is at 1.74 kdr is perpetually a 6LL build that fires in groups of too and is I use it for more sustained damage out put. I still think Torso twisting is a important skill cause while that sniper is waiting for you center torso he's not shooting at anyone else.

As for mediums in this meta, I would say drive them just like a light, stay outa the fight and out of fire until your main group has engaged. Or just stay as a screening force to drive off enemy lights.

Again I'm not completely dismissing convergence or the opness of high alpha builds. I just think pilot skill needs to improve more before we start trying to nerf everything into the ground.

[DocBach]

how about when clans come and we can pack three gauss and two ER PPCs or 75 point damage alphas with nearly no heat?

[Ralgas]

We know it needs to happen in some form, BUT they have stated that the hud isn't getting a facelift till post ui 2.0. Foaming at the mouth about adding a new system yet isn't going to land it any quicker, or if it does it's only going to push on other rushed work.

There are better solutions out there, but if the multi heat were to be enforced in more of an archtype style system determined by wep damage output as opposed to "X number on X wep and only these ones stack" (as it sounds in the CC post) + the return of convergence delays as per they early builds ie (already built into the system). I could live with that.......

Edited by Ralgas, 11 July 2013 - 08:57 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

My win loss is plenty fine thank you.

Again I'm not completely dismissing convergence or the opness of high alpha builds. I just think pilot skill needs to improve more before we start trying to nerf everything into the ground.

What I get from this is that you are using a high alpha build to punish poor pug groups in your lower ranking bracket and dominating the match until you get rolfstomped when you get up forcing you back down where you think things are 'fine' for now because you are winning.

I am close, aren't I?

[Theodor Kling]

DocBach, on 11 July 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

how about when clans come and we can pack three gauss and two ER PPCs or 75 point damage alphas with nearly no heat?

You mean when we bring out the Annihilator, where 3 gauss (4 in the C2 variant using pure clan tech)+1 ER PPC is a stock build?
I tend to agree that some people lack piloting skill ( including me probably), but that doesn't negate the need to adress pinpoint accuracy.
I personally don't torso twist that much, but guess why.. none of my mechs benefits from it. I won't spend real money on this game as logn as it stays in early beta, so I got only 4 mech bays. 3 of them full atm, the 4th had a mech in I sold to get the c-bills needed to upgrade one of the others. It's amazing how having to buy a mech twice for leveling it due to mechby space restictions hampers your c-bill flow...
Anyway my current mechs are a COM-2D... not made for batteling it out with others, and torso twistign is not an option realy: It won't save me from multi-PPC salvos.
My Centurion happens to have his firepower in the torso... I can twist a bit, but using free look and aiming with the arms is not practical because of this. Furthermore the centurion with those side panels flanking the cockpit does have a limited FOV to the side anyway.
And then I got an LRM Jäger. I experimented a bit with the loadout, but whatever I do, I can only shoot straight forward because the arms are locked horizontally. So I have to turn to the enemy sooner or later. The primary backup weapon currently being a MPL it's sooner.
And as others already said: even if you successfully torso twist.. it only really prolongs your life in heavies and assault. Mediums and lights are simply blasted away.

Edited by Theodor Kling, 11 July 2013 - 09:48 PM.

[MisterFiveSeven]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

This is not constructive nor needed. My win loss is plenty fine thank you.

And to you bill. I do have some cheese mechs and i run them sometimes but for the last couple of patches i've been just running whats fun. My heavy metal is a 1.82 kdr, its a 2erppc,2 ac2 build. My misery is at 2 kdr, and it goes between guass and 5 medium lasers and just a 5 large laser build. My stalker 3f is at 1.74 kdr is perpetually a 6LL build that fires in groups of too and is I use it for more sustained damage out put. I still think Torso twisting is a important skill cause while that sniper is waiting for you center torso he's not shooting at anyone else.

Not to be that guy, but my Misery KDR is > 3.5 from exclusively solo pugging; I'm not sure you understand the level of play where high alpha's are broken.

Dug this back up for reference, because it is the best way I've seen it articulated.

Zyllos, on 11 July 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

The whole metagame is based on the fact that if your not placing damage onto a location that will either kill or maim a target, it's pointless damage. And the reasoning behind this is two fold:

• You can torso twist away without hurting your own DPS and aiming
  
• Pin point accuracy allows alpha strikes to aim all their damage onto a single point

As long as you have pin point accuracy, players will gravitate to loadouts that allows for alpha strikes to hit a single locations instantly and allow you to torso twist/dodge away waiting on cooldowns.

Unless you are using LRM's, there is no way to hit a target without exposing the location your enemy wants to hit.

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 11 July 2013 - 09:58 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Zyllos, on 11 July 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

This is the problem:

If torso twisting is the pinnacle of gameplay, then I guess builds that need to face their target to continue dealing damage are worthless right?

That is a huge fundamental issue with your idea that you *must* torso twist. But even torso twisting doesn't do anything against pin point damage. Sure, you can increase the chance of hitting a side, but all the same still lands all in one place.

That's the fundamental reason why alpha boats are always great to have. Fire all your guns, get to torso twist between shots.

I think torso twisting is a skill, but only boats have the real chance to let you use that skill, and even then, you better have a heavy ballistic or PPC boat, because lasers force you to stay on target for a second.

(My forced chain-fire idea to negate the boat advantage of course overall means more time spend looking at the target. But since you fire more often overall because you have to chain-fire, one could lower the overall fire rate of mechs, so there is still more time between each firing, without giving players a feeling of "inactive" periods. At least no more inactive as we are right now with AC/20 or PPC alphas every 4 seconds.).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 12 July 2013 - 02:54 AM.

[Bromineberry]

Artgathan, on 11 July 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Except torso twisting in light and medium mechs only really delays your impending death (while not making you more effective).

A 45 point alpha on any mech less than 50 tons means you instantly lose a component. If you're in a light, you likely have an XL engine, which means a 1-hit kill death if it hits a side torso.

If you're in in a medium, congrats, you just lost 50% of your firepower because half of your mech is missing, and in another 4 seconds you'll lose the other half.

L2P is not the answer here.

This. And I have to add, that if you are crazy enought to use lasers, you can not torsotwist away so easily if you want to deal damage. HBK with 2PPC? Easy: shot, twist, wait, twist, shoot, twist. Or, if the enemy twists away, simply wait until he turns again towards you, shoot and then twist. Doing this with lasers? Of course you can twist around with lasers...but doing damage is much, much harder simply because you have to face the target to deliver he damage.

[mogs01gt]

As a new player I find it disheartening that more experienced players do not understand game mechanics when it comes to SW's weapons. For the discussion, I will call PPC's, Gauss and AC's "sniper weapons or SW's for short"

SW's require LoS only for a few seconds, other weapons requires LoS as well but it must be maintained for a longer period of time. As an example, LRM's require lock on, no obstacles, no AMS and all missles must hit to be effective. The opposite is true of SWs who also have the advantage at med and close range combat.

Superior piloting assumes that each map provides adequate cover. In my short experience with this game, the maps are not really designed for flanking and even so, SW's are still effective meduim and close range. This whole use torso twist to counter sniping is an odd way of thinking. So I make sure my arms are facing a target that I cant see, to hope they dont get any LoS on my front or rear torso just to lose my arm when they alpha strike me at 1000m? Im sorry but that is ********.

[Fate 6]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I ask you what about torso twisting, how about moving behind cover. Use terrain. I honestly feel like some of these threads on convergence are people who want to pilot there mech out into the open and stand there and shoot at people, and have people miss them. To be fair I think some of the high alpha builds are a bit over the top and don't usually run them myself, but this constant nagging on convergence is starting to drive me insane. When ravens and spiders can run through a whole team of enemy mechs come out the other side damaged but not dead and get away something is wrong. I don't know about all of you but I rarely get alpha'd out of my mech in 3 shots. Normally I'm the guy at the end of the match trudging along on yellow or orange internals everywhere. RNG is not fun at least to me, I don't take my time to line up a shot just to have the game decide my shot didn't hit

So here is my balance idea. Pilot your mechs better, and don't be the immortal warrior, use cover, hide, limit your exposure to enemy fire. You are not an invincible unstoppable Kai Allard-Liao.

You are clearly not a medium or light pilot, go back under the assault bridge you crawled out from under.

Note, also, that torso twisting means you can no longer see the guy, so you can't shoot him. That gives him 2 choices: 1) shoot your arm off (I've lost plenty of arms to single alphas when I'm in a medium) or 2) wait until you face him again and pop you in the chest

Edited by Fate 6, 12 July 2013 - 06:52 AM.

[Feetwet]

One of my favorite mechs is my relatively fast 4 ac2 Jaeger. It was a solid support mech for a while after release. Now it is a heavy paper weight in my mech garage. All High DPS/Low Alpha mechs are screwed in the current meta. Torso twisting with ac2s, please. These type of mechs perform real well...until they are noticed...then...smoking ruin.

[Foxfire]

Ozora Wolfsaber, on 11 July 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

I ask you what about torso twisting, how about moving behind cover. Use terrain. I honestly feel like some of these threads on convergence are people who want to pilot there mech out into the open and stand there and shoot at people, and have people miss them. To be fair I think some of the high alpha builds are a bit over the top and don't usually run them myself, but this constant nagging on convergence is starting to drive me insane. When ravens and spiders can run through a whole team of enemy mechs come out the other side damaged but not dead and get away something is wrong. I don't know about all of you but I rarely get alpha'd out of my mech in 3 shots. Normally I'm the guy at the end of the match trudging along on yellow or orange internals everywhere. RNG is not fun at least to me, I don't take my time to line up a shot just to have the game decide my shot didn't hit

So here is my balance idea. Pilot your mechs better, and don't be the immortal warrior, use cover, hide, limit your exposure to enemy fire. You are not an invincible unstoppable Kai Allard-Liao.

The problem, though, is when even a second out of cover can spell doom due to extreme alpha damage all hitting a single point.



This mechanic also limits the impact on piloting skill, especially when combined with Seismic sensor.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

So I'm in my Centurion, doing my thing.

Unfortunately, I decide I want to actually fight...so I have to expose parts of my mech so that I can fire.

I realize that there is a PPC stalker that can now see me.

OH NO I SAY...OH NO.

So I twist...

And due to what is a rather large model for my tonnage, and the fact that aiming in this game is just not that hard, he blows open a giant gaping hole into my mech.

All because I peeked out and twisted.

Maybe I'll get lucky and he'll blow off my shield arm.

But we are basically talking about ONE shot, that basically maims my mech. Even if I twist.

It's not like twisting through an LRM volley or a Laser volley.

This thread is dumb.

[Karazyr]

ooo my we see all of the elitist players come out of the wookwork now

if ppcs had speed lowered to half or so that would help alot, the damage is not a issue since as op said you can torso twist and have it hit a less vital area...sometimes, and seriously guys stop yelling about your ELO tier its worse than people comparing e-peens

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Derrpy, on 12 July 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

ooo my we see all of the elitist players come out of the wookwork now

if ppcs had speed lowered to half or so that would help alot, the damage is not a issue since as op said you can torso twist and have it hit a less vital area...sometimes, and seriously guys stop yelling about your ELO tier its worse than people comparing e-peens

Can you explain this less vital area on a medium or a light mech?

If you're in a Blackjack, you basically are going to lose a part of your mech, and there is NOTHING you can do about it.

[Braggart]

OP is bad, and should feel bad.

Your awesome piloting skills dont mean anything when I can still core you in a couple volleys.

Your torso twisting does nothing..................you know why, because you still gotta look at me to return fire. When you twist away to protect yourself, guess what. I have a single weapon set by itself so that i can shoot it, and make you think i blew my load and got crap damage, then you twist back and slam, you get the real load.

See what I did there. You assume that your enemy is an *****, and thats problem. Once you get good, your opponents are not idiots. So when you come on here and say blah blah blah l2p. Perhaps you should also consider that your opponents are as skilled or better than you.

I think anything with any intelligence knows what you are saying about cover, and such...............BUT IF I CAN SHOOT YOU. YOU CAN SHOOT ME. so who wins is the guy with the better alpha, if skill and tactics are equal.

[Ph30nix]

part of the problem is everyone piloting assault mechs, they all think they can just wade face first into things. They dont realize the ppc/gauss meta is because its the best counter to the mass of assault mechs but the counter to ppc/gauss is faster mechs to harass the slow hulking assaults cant exactly snipe other big hulking assaults if your too busy being pecked to death by lights.

and i pilot lights almost exclusively i have NEVER been one shotted by a big alpha, never even had a limb go from 100% to gone either. Because i dont go face first over hills (i go around), i don't charge out into the open and lastly i dont go face to face with bigger mechs or try to fight mechs that im weak against. such as SSRM mechs, ac/40's. I call those out and let my team mates who are better equiped kill them, if i have to fight them i do what ido for the big slow assaults i stay behind them and do hit and run attacks.

[Foxfire]

Eh.. just wait, then.

I don't go face first over a hill, either.. I tend to go around to make sure I keep in cover but it just takes a couple of seconds of exposure and a lucky shot to lose a limb.

Hell, with HSR, I've lost legs after clearly making it to cover in a 150 KPH mech(Raven)...

[Obadiah333]

Ph30nix, on 12 July 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

part of the problem is everyone piloting assault mechs, they all think they can just wade face first into things. They dont realize the ppc/gauss meta is because its the best counter to the mass of assault mechs but the counter to ppc/gauss is faster mechs to harass the slow hulking assaults cant exactly snipe other big hulking assaults if your too busy being pecked to death by lights.

and i pilot lights almost exclusively i have NEVER been one shotted by a big alpha, never even had a limb go from 100% to gone either. Because i dont go face first over hills (i go around), i don't charge out into the open and lastly i dont go face to face with bigger mechs or try to fight mechs that im weak against. such as SSRM mechs, ac/40's. I call those out and let my team mates who are better equiped kill them, if i have to fight them i do what ido for the big slow assaults i stay behind them and do hit and run attacks.

Wait, piloting your mech and playing it the way it was meant to be played? Right out, get that out of here. There is no room on the forums for common sense. Right out I say!

[GingerBang]

Here is the flaw in your logic OP. You like convergence? You must suck at aiming if you need all your weapons to hit one spot. See what i did there?