114 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

LRM results vary, sometimes they suck wind and sometimes they are devestating. Alot depends on your team locking and holding targets as well as catching the enemy out in the open away from cover or better yet distracted and away from cover. However they are so inconsistant is what they can do it is hard to say that are overpowered or underpowered at any given time.

[Kaldor]

Gaslight, on 15 July 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

LRMs are mediocre unless you have multiple 'mechs on your team coordinating their fire. If that happens they can become scary but that's rare. Try piloting a solo missile boat sometime and see what an exercise in frustration it is. There's such a long list of factors that can ruin your shot successful LRM bombardment as often as not comes down to luck. Even the higher flightpath arc can cause more trouble than it's worth, because it means a longer flight time which offsets the boost in speed missiles got.

The only possible area where LRMs might be overpowered is their still-persistent tendency to seemingly focus their damage on the center torso, and this is, properly speaking, an issue with the splash damage coding in the game which PGI will have to address rather than LRMs themselves.

I agree and disagree with you on your points.

The flight paths are crap. You should be able to stand behind something that is twice the height of your mech, and not get hit, spotter or not. Add in the wonderful movement changes and assaults and heavies get stuck on a pebble and get CT cored.

I agree with you on the entire CT coring problem. Its almost ridiculous and it doesnt matter what mech your running. Assaults and heavies just are easier to hit.

Kitane, on 15 July 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Gaslight:

The current splash damage is set to so low values that it can be safely ignored as relevant.

As Paul said, the main reason LRMs do most of their damage is to CT is because CT is the largest exposed part of the mech (on most mechs) on a typical missile approach vector and torso twisting grants a limited coverage against descending vector of missiles - the head is part of CT and is almost always exposed.

I agree, the splash damage seems to be done right now. Its very minimal. The missiles should not be homing CT at all though, that is the problem. By canon, they are an AOE weapon. Right now they functioning like long range SSRMs.

Gallowglas, on 15 July 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

It's not that LRM's are OP in and of themselves, but they're hitting CT way too often. Fix that and they'd be balanced.

QFT

[Corvus Antaka]

Kyynele, on 15 July 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

I'm starting to wonder if we're even playing the same game.

Highlander 733 has 20+10=30 dynamic tubes in the one side torso and 10+10=20 dynamic tubes in the one arm, and shoots 50 LRMs in a volley. I have one. With them LRMs.

The highlander 733P however does not, it only has a 20 and a 10 even if you stick a 20 in the arm you only 10 slots and it fires the 20 as a 10.

Just because you want the awesome a certain way does not mean it should be that way.

[Middcore]

Kaldor, on 15 July 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

I agree and disagree with you on your points.

The flight paths are crap. You should be able to stand behind something that is twice the height of your mech, and not get hit, spotter or not. Add in the wonderful movement changes and assaults and heavies get stuck on a pebble and get CT cored.

The high flight arc is both a blessing and a curse. On one hand, yes, it allows you to still hit people even when they're behind what seems like it should be good cover. On the other hand, the fact the missiles fly in a higher arc means they are in the air longer, offsetting the increase in speed they got. The longer the missiles are in the air, the more time there is for you to lose your missile lock, or for the enemy to find cover that actually works, etc. And, moreover, the longer you're stuck trying to maintain your lock on the target. One of the biggest limitations of LRMs which is not talked about much is that, since they are not "fire and forget," you have to keep pointing in the general direction of your target the whole time the missiles are in flight, which restricts your ability to maneuver. An LRM boat is vulnerable during the time when its missile salvo is in the air because it can't twist and change direction freely without the risk of losing its lock and wasting the salvo.

As for the CT coring, I know that they turned splash damage down to almost nothing in theory. However, the fact that they specifically cited splash damage as the cause of the apparent CT damage concentration in the past, the fact that it's still occurring to some extent, and the fact that by their own admission they really don't have a handle on how splash damage works in the game/engine at all makes me suspect that they didn't actually get it turned off as they thought they did and that it may still be playing a role. Just a theory.

Edited by Gaslight, 15 July 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Kaldor]

Gaslight, on 15 July 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

The high flight arc is both a blessing and a curse. On one hand, yes, it allows you to still hit people even when they're behind what seems like it should be good cover. On the other hand, the fact the missiles fly in a higher arc means they are in the air longer, offsetting the increase in speed they got. The longer the missiles are in the air, the more time there is for you to lose your missile lock, or for the enemy to find cover that actually works, etc. And, moreover, the longer you're stuck trying to maintain your lock on the target. One of the biggest limitations of LRMs which is not talked about much is that, since they are not "fire and forget," you have to keep pointing in the general direction of your target the whole time the missiles are in flight, which restricts your ability to maneuver. An LRM boat is vulnerable during the time when its missile salvo is in the air because it can't twist and change direction freely without the risk of losing its lock and wasting the salvo.

As for the CT coring, I know that they turned splash damage down to almost nothing in theory. However, the fact that they specifically cited splash damage as the cause of the apparent CT damage concentration in the past, the fact that it's still occurring to some extent, and the fact that by their own admission they really don't have a handle on how splash damage works in the game/engine at all makes me suspect that they didn't actually get it turned off as they thought they did and that it may still be playing a role. Just a theory.

Try a mech with arms such as an Awesome 8R. It helps alot with maintaining targets while getting out of the way. The control key is your friend. Ive boated LRMs on alot of mechs, and Ive found the 8R to be the best one. You can also shoot LRMs around corners with a 8R. Add in Target Decay module, use TAG when you can, and add a BAP, and an LRM boat gets alot more effective.

I dont think they should track the mech at all. They should be tracking the ground around the mech, as an AOE weapon.

The angle of attack needs to be lowered slightly. Cover twice as tall as your mech should screen you from LRMs. Currently it does not. You can break LOS with short cover, but its not stopping the incoming, and any aplyer who knows anything about playing an LRM boat uses Target Decay modules, and is NOT shooting at 900m.

[BookWyrm]

I think we really need to be honest with ourselves people. Machine Guns and Flamers are ruining all the fun. I've been taken down by MG and Flamer boats so many times; I'm sick of that high alpha damage and heat spread all over my non-critical parts.

[Lugh]

IceSerpent, on 13 July 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

It's already as good as it should be.

Until the advent of Clan AMS through SL use....Hear the crying now ? I can...

[Squiggy McPew]

Hehe. Just stipped my cat a1 down to its skivvies and rebuilt it from the ground up for artemis.

Trollolololololol..

Can't wait to actually get some decent pilot skills and modules into the mix. Glad I took that lengthy break for the devs to sort things out.

[Hysteria]

Lefty McBoom, on 13 July 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

Just had game after game of missles just pouring down from nowhere and killing me before I could even engage. So no more brawling? I know what I sound like right now, and I'm a little frustrated but I seriously had no fun tonight because of this. Now I hear they're going to raise the heat on PPC's again? So is this just going to become Missle Warrior Online? Just asking to tone the missles down a little and let us fight. Thanks.

I get what you're saying, and I agree that getting missle spammed to death sucks but there are ways to get around it. Not every single game is exactly the same, but when you run into missle boats you need to A) Use cover stick close to your team for overlapping AMS and C)Have someone focus down the missle support with long range fire supports and light mechs to come in from behind and distract them.

I think missles are great where they're at, and should be a feared weapon in the game. They effect the way each match plays, and it makes people stick together and fight as a team to win. Having to overcome missles is something I see as a good thing for the community because it inspires teamwork and creativity to mix the game up and surprise the other team.

[Rugger Doug]

I have 10 mechs but split most of my time between a STK-5M missle boat and a Misery that I've tweaked into a brawler.

I see the missle argument from both sides. I've put up 4 kills and 3 assists with the STK-5M before; I've also died with nearly all my tubes empty and no points scored. The difference is always a combination of my team's play and enemy response. If my team maintains some semblance of formation and locks targets I'm going to come out with a huge game; if my team gets loose and doesn't hold their target locks, all it takes is one aggressive, fast mech to get in close to me.

One of my favorite games was last night when a BJ flanked me thinking to come up behind me. I thought I was toast, but he'd taken enough DMG during the game that a 4ML shot to his CT finished him off. I'm sure he thought he had me; my adrenaline went up a notch because I had a sense when he disappeared behind a building to my right that he was coming. I just happened to catch him inside my LRM range with the lasers as he popped from between two buildings. That's fun!

I've also suffered the fate of being on the receiving end of an LRM barrage. It sucks!

Usually, when it happens I have ventured out of cover on my own or made a decision that doesn't give me a good line of retreat. I've learned to link up with an ECM bot or stay close to obstacles and let AMS take care of the rest. Even in my 58 KPH Misery I've been able to rush a LRM boat to get inside of the effective range; usually that happens when a lancemate is rushing with me. All that said, I think that most balance, play experience problems related to balance are solved by playing in teams.

I had thought as a casual player I would simply lone wolf and PUG it through this game; now, given my experience on both sides of the LRM divide and others (neither of my STK's give me much benefit when I'm fighting a pair of lights, W/L's are more about how well the PUG plays together than my play) I have begun looking for a good group to join. The way the game is structured in the end it just feels as if balance is going to be more about Us V Them rather than me v you.

[NRP]

DYSEQTA, on 13 July 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

In my opinion they have now got the LRM balance pretty much perfect. I say this as someone 99% of the time on the receiving end as I don't run many mechs with LRMs.

This is funny. They make LRMs better, everyone packs them and just rains on people the whole match, and everything is just fine.

But when they made PPCs better, and everyone started using them, there are massive tears and the world is ending. Really?

[MeiSooHaityu]

NRP, on 15 July 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

This is funny. They make LRMs better, everyone packs them and just rains on people the whole match, and everything is just fine.

But when they made PPCs better, and everyone started using them, there are massive tears and the world is ending. Really?

Well, when you think about it, that is comparing apples to oranges.

LRMs are indirect fire support that requires a sustained lock. They are devestating if you are caught in a barage, but a player can limit or negate their effects.

LRMs
* LRMs have travel time allowing you time to seek cover to protect you from them.
* Damage can be reduced by use of AMS or almost completely negated when staying near multiple AMS mechs.
* ECM prevents missile lock in most cases (Unless ECM is being countered or I think BAP works (although you are almost too close when it does).
* Often really effective LRM teams use scouts with TAG or NARC to pinpoint enemy mechs making it a team effort.

PPCs with Gauss...
*Get lucky enough to line up a shot and inflict massive pinpoint damage.
and....well that is about it.

There is no AMS or systems that can combat or disrupt PPCs, and there is no need for scouts to lock or track an enemy for a PPPC/Gauss to be effective. PPCs/Gauss are just shoot...instant high damage.

LRMs might be brutal, but they feel a heck of a lot more fair than one lucky shot ruining your whole match.

[NRP]

Well, cover works just fine to avoid direct fire. Cover doesn't do squat for LRMs, especially with the Target Decay module.

Hell, I can't remember the last time I saw a brawler Atlas. They're all LRM boats now.

[Middcore]

NRP, on 15 July 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Hell, I can't remember the last time I saw a brawler Atlas. They're all LRM boats now.

Doesn't gibe with my experience. Atlases in the games I play go, in decreasing order of popularity

1. Sniper/alpha
2. Brawler or mixed brawler
3. (Uncommon) LRM boats

Which is a good thing because an LRM boat Atlas is a damn waste.

I suspect what may be happening is that you're seeing a lot of people using the champion variant Atlas, which is a Trial 'mech right now and has 2xLRM15, and the inexperienced people using it are standing back and just firing their LRMs instead of effectively using its other weapons.

[Kitane]

Kaldor, on 15 July 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

I agree with you on the entire CT coring problem. Its almost ridiculous and it doesnt matter what mech your running. Assaults and heavies just are easier to hit.



I agree, the splash damage seems to be done right now. Its very minimal. The missiles should not be homing CT at all though, that is the problem. By canon, they are an AOE weapon. Right now they functioning like long range SSRMs.

I haven't found anything about them being an AoE weapon with a decreased effectivity against mechs. Their primary role is an effective long range mech/aircraft killing weapon, with a disadvantage of low ammo and high logistic requirements. They can be used to fire a barrage, but that's the secondary role.

[Middcore]

Kitane, on 15 July 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

I haven't found anything about them being an AoE weapon with a decreased effectivity against mechs. Their primary role is an effective long range mech/aircraft killing weapon, with a disadvantage of low ammo and high logistic requirements. They can be used to fire a barrage, but that's the secondary role.

They're not really an AoE weapon. What people may be talking about is that in the tabletop game, they would scatter their damage all over the body of the target 'mech...you rolled a dice against a random hit location table. They didn't do all or even the majority of their damage to one body part, unless you got very very lucky on your dice roll.

That isn't really the same thing as "AoE" as it's commonly understood though.

[FrDrake]

Rugger Doug, on 15 July 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

...

...The way the game is structured in the end it just feels as if balance is going to be more about Us V Them rather than me v you.

Only gets worse with 12v12, carrying 11 other ppl is going to be rough .

[Joseph Mallan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 14 July 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

Exactly this. This can be a huge problem when you get an ecm scout tagging for a 3 man LRM team, and can be brutal.

It should be brutal, depending on the # of LRMs being lobbed. A coordinated team of players using any good builds should be a scary thing to run into. I am pretty happy with how LRMs are being used against me.

[Corvus Antaka]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 July 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

It should be brutal, depending on the # of LRMs being lobbed. A coordinated team of players using any good builds should be a scary thing to run into. I am pretty happy with how LRMs are being used against me.

I agree.

[Rugger Doug]

Oh, no, 12 v. 12! I'll run out of missles!

Actually, I can't wait to play 12 v 12. I think since I person can't carry it the team aspects will be even more enhanced. An organized lance out of 4 would roll. It will impact loadout. And then because those with missles and ballistics will run out we will all be posting because running out of ammo is a balance issue!