461 replies to this topic

[tetefroid]

Why do we keep limiting what we can do instead of increasing customization options of the weapons load out and equipment? Maybe we need different servers for those who want to be limited to staying true to the Battletech universe and those who want a black market style chop shop universe.

[tetefroid]

I could care less if I get killed by dualAC20 or by a splat cat, it's war folks, stop nerfing war. Or should we just all run around with beanbag and squirt guns? So no one really gets hurt.

Edited by tetefroid, 16 July 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Razerbeast]

This patch is garbage. hitbox is still junk and srm were never worth using anyway. A heat scale seems explicit to incremental heat gains, the heat just jumps to 100% and shutdown. Let's make it easier to gain heat and cancel the buffer so instead of taking damage at 120% heat, it now happens at 100%. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

[DeaconW]

Standby for dozens of posts in the following format:

"Dear PGI,

Rocks are OP but paper is fine.

Sincerely,

Scissors"

Look..the first two replies are just that. Seriously, this is a overly complex, bad idea. Stop perfect convergence and restore PPC/ERPPC to their last heat values before HSR. That is my humble recommendation.

[ApolloKaras]

I approve. I automatically started seeing people running mixed loadouts - interesting and refreshing to see. Of course these are initial impressions I'm sure these will change a little in the next few days.

[Nulnoil]

DeaconW, on 16 July 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Look..the first two replies are just that. Seriously, this is a overly complex, bad idea. Stop perfect convergence and restore PPC/ERPPC to their last heat values before HSR. That is my humble recommendation.

...because new heat penalty system brokes all but not helps:

Specially was buyed ppc boat for test:

[Corvus Antaka]

Phreon, on 16 July 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I really dislike this system. I find it both unintuitive and completely alien to any pre-existing mechanism from other games in either the Battletech or Mechwarrior series. It seems like a bizzarely convoluted attempt to "fix" balance without actually balancing other weapon types to be useful. While weapons are in need of balancing (and to throw some praise in, thanks for the SRM buff!) this isn't a balance as much as it is an across the board nerf on everything except the Gauss Rifle.

In mech3 you could alpha dual ac/20 3 times before you nuked your mech. we now have the same system here. This system is nothing new, is certainly usperior to mech4's player hand holding, and is far from over the top punishing.

[ClanKiller]

Asatruer, on 16 July 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

No? Clearly that seems to be the case here in MWO, but since they were designed for BattleTech whether they were designed with the intent of firing all their weapons at once should be gauged by BattleTech standards.
The AWS-8Q with its 3 PPCs produces 30 units of heat on an alpha, with its 28 Heatsinks that means that if the 3 PPCs are fired every time they can be, the AWS-8Q only rises 2 units of heat per weapon fire cycle if it is standing still. If it is walking at 32 km/h that is one more unit of heat per weapon fire cycle, and if running at 54 km/h that is only two more heat per cycle.
So if walking and alpha firing every single time the PPCs could be fired, it would take 10 full alpha striked to overheat into forced shutdown. Heat management on an AWS-8Q consists of every couple alphas only shooting 2 rather than 3 PPCs.

The HBK-4P is a similar story. With only 23 heat sinks and 8 MLs producing a total of 24 heat per alpha, the HBK-4P is only rising 1/2/3 (standing/walking/running) heat per full alpha fire cycle. It would take 10 full alphas while running to cause a forced shutdown due to overheating. The heat management here is again, just shooting 6 MLs every other turn.


Here in MWO, even without this added heat for large alphas, this sort of sustained fire that the mechs were designed to output is completely out of the question. The boogeyman here is not alphas, or heat though, it is convergence. BattleTech solves the problem of these scarry alpha boating mechs by allowing for not all the shots hit, or all of the shots hit the same place. If MWO never does anything about this convergence issue, high alphas will always be a problem, even with arbitrary heat penalties, and applying heat penalties (like in the form of heatsinks only being 1/3 as effective or worse, and this new change) only breaks the designs of the various stock mechs whose record sheets are being imported directly for all of the variants in this game.

One thing that MWO is lacking that could go a long way to help lessen the regularity of high alphas is actually use BattleTech's heat penalties that start occurring long before the mech is overheating and shutting down. Rather than spend to much screen space here talking about it, I will just link to another thread on the subject. http://mwomercs.com/...-jump-jet-nerf/

I like the convergence ideas brought up here. The explanation about how many alphas you can use also very well done.

I would like to add the following for conversation:

1. Weapons in left and right torsos have set convergence out to any range, but have a minimum convergence depending on the size of the mech. The convergence can be set by the mechwarrior in the mech bay, but it is locked during a match.

2. Arms with no lower actuators act as left and right torsos for convergence. Arms with lower actuators act as they do now. EDIT: After thinking about it each arm should be able to pivot 30 degrees at the shoulder even without lower arm actuators.

This would reduce the ability to put large alphas all in one spot with the exception of the convergence range. This would give people the ability to configure their mech to their fighting style and weapon ranges.

I also like the idea of the heat penalties in the BT game.

Edited by ClanKiller, 16 July 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[JeepStuff]

I apologize if this has been brought up (I haven't read all 9 pages), but currently it looks like the "Heat Efficiency" metric in the Mechlab doesn't reflect the changes from Heat Scaling. In my opinion, it should.

Right now I have a heat efficiency target I shoot for when deciding on a loadout. The heat efficiency isn't a true test of heat management because it assumes an alpha strike, but I can get a sense of what the heat efficiency will be by deleting all the weapons in groups 2, 3, 4, etc and only leaving the weapons in group 1. Then check the efficiency. Then repeat for group 2 and check again. Repeat. It's awkward, but it works.

Now with the Heat Scaling, there's no way to compare the heat efficiency or weigh the consequences of pushing the limits. In other words, I would like to be able to add a third PPC and see what happens to the efficiency, so I can make an informed decision.

As it is now, the only way I can try it is to play it, and that will be a SLOW learning process.

Any chance you could make the Heat Efficiency take into consideration the Heat Scaling you just added?

Thanks.

[Stalephreak]

Way to completely kill the awesome PGI. It's a ppc boat in it's original form! I like heat penalties, but this is stupid. Leave it to ammo explosions, blooming reticles, static reticle perhaps even, but this is the epitome of "short bus"

[krolmir]

I'm fine with the heat scale and its penalties. Wha wha, you mean I have to manage my heat. Isn't that lostech or something. Heat management as a skill? Pffft, this is alpha warrior online, where skill is determined by how many massive weapons I can boat? Seriously though, I think it's great to see heat management make a comeback as a pilot skill. Last time I remember having to watch my heat this much was closed beta. It has ever been a skill in battletech, both in the game, and in lore. Join the club of those who walk the razor's edge of damage, maneuvering, and heat management. The trifecta of piloting.

[Statius]

None of the mechs I run are affected by this new heat system. I am not a boater. Nonetheless, in principle this kind of balancing is no more than an attempt to cure a symptom of underlying balance issues with the nature of heat and weapons fire. This method is inorganic and, as many have pointed out, obscure to those who are either new or do not follow the forums.

As many have suggested above, I reiterate that several aspects of the game could benefit from revisiting (or visiting for the first time:

-Heat penalties before overheating. Running too hot for too long could affect heat sink efficiency, mech detectability, missile tracking, cause ammo explosions, etc.. There ought to be consequences for running hot.

-Convergence. Differing convergence times, affected by motion and other conditions would spread fire around without completely preventing pinpoint damage; if you want it, you have to earn it by patience and skill. This might also give the targeting computer a place in the future.

-Reconsider weapon heat and cooling time. To encourage chain fire increased heat and decreased cooling time would change the pace without adding penalties.

-Consider new heat sink mechanics. If the above situation were implemented, the location of heat sinks could also be brought into play, so that the heat sinks in the same location of any weapon would grant (modestly) decreased heat to weapons in that area. It would offer a new reason to think about how loadouts are set up, and, moreover, offer a reason to use standard heat sinks (i.e. to keep certain weapons cooler).

[Stalephreak]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 16 July 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

How about you tell PGI how it could all be designed so much better then, instead of telling them how much they suck while you keep playing their game.

FINE!!!! PGI NEEDS CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM FOR THEIR LOUSY IDEAS??? Here's your solution, make the F@#$NG thing open-source so we can actually fix the dam thing. They obviously can't do it in a closed, corporate, programming style environment. Till then, if they don't listen they've earned the troll.

[krolmir]

Oh, and for all the Awesome pilots, put your 2 torso PPCs on one group, and your arm PPC on another. The only way to avoid convergence besides this is to lock your reticule. Which kills you in a maneuvering fight. I remember closed beta when a 9m was lucky to have a .85 efficiency, and also like now blew up quickly on overheat. Even back then I still had 700 to 1000 point matches, as long as I played it how it was meant to be.

[Deathlike]

Acid Phase, on 16 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Sorry guys, but you can no longer use the

I apologize for still using it on the HGN-732, with 2 PPC + 1 ERPPC + 1 Gauss. It is still working as intended™.

Even with the specific change that will occur on the 30th... it will still be functional then.

If you don't actually understand the changes, you won't properly predict the future meta.

The system itself needs to be rethought and revamped, but it doesn't actually address the problems that it intends to, outside of crushing every newbie outright that actually tries to copy builds that work in the current/new meta. In essence, you are raising the "skill" bar to people that understand the game better than the devs themselves. Same goes for the JJ reticule shaking.. this is no different.

Edit:
At the very least, loosen up on the LL boating restriction from 2 to 3 or 4. I do not remember 2 LL being a boating issue on any serious level. People have used 5-6 LL Stalkers, and having them stagger with 3 LL instead of 2 would at least be reasonable.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 July 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Bloody Moon]

Seriously, do us a favor and just leave the Large Lasers as they were before, those weapons were the epitome of balance before this new heat mechanism, heck leave the Medium Lasers aswell, the Mechs that can boat it above 6 already have plenty of weaknesses...

[Corvus Antaka]

Stalephreak, on 16 July 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

FINE!!!! PGI NEEDS CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM FOR THEIR LOUSY IDEAS??? Here's your solution, make the F@#$NG thing open-source so we can actually fix the dam thing. They obviously can't do it in a closed, corporate, programming style environment. Till then, if they don't listen they've earned the troll.

I'm not sure I'd want someone with your short temper anywhere near design code.

[Stalephreak]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 16 July 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

I'm not sure I'd want someone with your short temper anywhere near design code.

Sorry, my short temper comes from dealing with people of lower intelligence day in and day out. This is supposed to be a fun game...And it's getting to be about as much fun as being on the wrong end of a waterboarding party. The quote "only humans were harmed" is becoming far less than a joke. This whole heat thing is complete butkus. There was a stellar example of ways to make people heat conscious, right in the TT. Accuracy penalties, movement penalties, ammo explosion risks...This is just crap, royal Mario Bros 2 level of crap.

[Corvus Antaka]

Stalephreak, on 16 July 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Sorry, my short temper comes from dealing with people of lower intelligence day in and day out. This is supposed to be a fun game...And it's getting to be about as much fun as being on the wrong end of a waterboarding party. The quote "only humans were harmed" is becoming far less than a joke. This whole heat thing is complete butkus. There was a stellar example of ways to make people heat conscious, right in the TT. Accuracy penalties, movement penalties, ammo explosion risks...This is just crap, royal Mario Bros 2 level of crap.

apply for a job at PGI..if your so smart, they might just hire you

wierd though. in mech3 high heat blew you up. why is this penalty system such a big deal here?

Saxie, on 16 July 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

I approve. I automatically started seeing people running mixed loadouts - interesting and refreshing to see. Of course these are initial impressions I'm sure these will change a little in the next few days.

dont tell the trolls this.

[tetefroid]

you know, just about anything that generates heat is rated for a certain amount of heat but can take more than rated, but not these million c-bill mechs, f**k no way. what did you think, they are made for war or something?

Edited by tetefroid, 16 July 2013 - 07:32 PM.