461 replies to this topic

[Iscarius]

Changed one of the four SRM6s on my Stalker to an SRM4 to avoid to penalty. *yawn*

[Foster Bondroff]

In one sentence:

The wrong solution for the given problem. PERIOD!

Do something about convergence and accuracy and you will adress the high alpha builds much better. Or even change the damage type PPCs and ACs do (which will nevertheless leave the Gauss as troublesome).

Did the long range high alpha meta change with this? No. I am still easily able to bring a 40point alpha into the game that not even remotely runs hot.

So come on do something weird and absolutely non-canon to the gauss to solve it.

And btw. If you - for whatever reason - wanted to balance weapons out over the heat system, than why you didnt play with DHS mechanic and weapons heat itself at first?

The entire heatsystem is getting more and more complex and less and less intuitive. You already had the overly complicated and nonrational engine DHS have different values than external DHS issue. Why you now make the system even more weird? You'd like systems so complex that handling and balancing them becomes a think of impossibility?

[East Indy]

So, I played more matches after posting -- I'm seeing all kinds of builds, and pacing remains where you'd expect for BattleTech.

My suggestion is to close the loop, and add a special restriction to the Gauss, as players are tacking it onto fire groups for one last grasp for big alpha. After last night's fun, they just don't have an excuse for going against the spirit of the game.

Edited by East Indy, 17 July 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[Veebora]

I think the idea is good and already part of mechwarrior universe.

But you should try smaller penalties to start with, you gave a too big step.

Some builds are now hurted to a almost unplayable status.

[eadipus]

Its hilariously bad and ineffective, ineffective enough that no more money is being spent on this game

Bad - Its needlessly complicated and hasn't been explained properly, still no news on what a Heat Scale Multiplier is; it arbitrarily punishes certain builds not others; for some reason the boomjager/cat got hit hard, no idea why, both were perfect as glass cannons

Ineffective - My 3x PPC + Gauss Highlander now has an ER-PPC for the next two weeks. In two weeks it will be swapped for more heatsinks, my alpha will still be high (35 dmg vs 45 dmg) but my DPS will be better. Gauss hasn't been affected at all and last night was utterly dominant particularly on hot map


Why so much time and effort was spent on this instead of tweaking numbers like internal HPs, heat, RoF, minimum range (the PPC would be a totally different beast if it had a minimum range of 180 and a hard minimum of 90), cycle time, ammo per ton etc is beyond me

[J I N]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 July 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Unlike a K2 there was absolutely nothing wrong with putting 2 AC20s on a Jagermech. It was a perfectly valid BT mech. Now PGI ruins everything BT is, adding heat to even single AC20 so it generates more then an ERPPC. Its just plain stupid. ACs don't generate much heat, ACs are limited by the amount of ammo they can use. You can be sure that with 12 vs 12 less people would use Jagerbombs because they can't possibly have enough ammo to last for 12 mechs.

There is NOTHING wrong with being able to alpha-strike. Problem is in convergence, as long as its not changed the game will be broken no matter what heat penalties you introduce for alpha-strikes.

I've tryed an AC40 Jager and a 4 and 6 PPC Stalkers yesterday. They are still very valid. This patch has failed.

As I see it, you are one of the players with a good knowledge and playtime base, so I think, how you are handling a mech is not the way most other players do.
Every good player with BT backround is talking about convergence, but I don't think that this game would benefit from it.... new players and the typical "I play sometimes after work for about an hour" would not be able to play this game as easy as it is right now and so many would probably search for another game to have fun. (yeah aiming is kind of easy now, but this is a shooter and so people expect: aim at something and hit it)

The player-base requires this and most of them won't care about discussions in the forum, but it's clear that many players were frustrated, when they had to face an AC40 or PPC Stalker...
If you get a team with communication and so on it would be easy to focus such mechs, but most people are in public games without such possibilitys, so here again the player-base is the reason in the end, to nerf the AC40.
But in fact i don't feel like the AC40 is useless now... people simply have to learn aiming at one spot for 0,5 seconds.

The players that are hit by the nerfs are not the good ones, but the ones who copy and paste such builds to get better stats without any knowledge of the mechanics behind it.
--> I don't understand what is so difficult about shooting 2 PPC and the next 2 PPCs after 0,5 seconds... O_o
Thats just my opinion, but I think the numbers of boats being played right now shows, that the way of PGI works pretty good for most people. And the few games I played right now were more fun for me. (I even started playing Jenners once more, because the pinpoint damage to my CT is not that high right now)

PS: PPCs and ERPPCs are two weapontypes, so this perfectly shows that most people don't start thinking for themselfs... use 2 of each and you will be ok and don't shout at PGI, cause you can't shoot 4 PPCs at the same time...

[Foster Bondroff]

Quote

Every good player with BT backround is talking about convergence, but I don't think that this game would benefit from it.... new players and the typical "I play sometimes after work for about an hour" would not be able to play this game as easy as it is right now and so many would probably search for another game to have fun. (yeah aiming is kind of easy now, but this is a shooter and so people expect: aim at something and hit it)

I don't see WoT having any problems communicating their convergence/scattering reticle to new players. So in my eyes a flawed argument as it is already proven working with other gaming concepts very similar to MWO.

EDIT: And here a little gimmick form Canon and TT the ultimate ER PPC boat http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar
The hellstar. A magnificient 60 points of damage that are cooled by 30 DHS so it acutually can stand still and alpha FOREVER.

BT canon and TT counter boats with random hit locations aka weapons convergence/spread.
So please stop to justify this hilarious new heat scaling with BT canon or TT.

Edited by Foster Bondroff, 17 July 2013 - 05:16 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

JIN1987, on 17 July 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Every good player with BT backround is talking about convergence, but I don't think that this game would benefit from it.... new players and the typical "I play sometimes after work for about an hour" would not be able to play this game as easy as it is right now and so many would probably search for another game to have fun. (yeah aiming is kind of easy now, but this is a shooter and so people expect: aim at something and hit it)

There are plenty of 'aim at something and hit it' games out there. This game can and should be different. Mostly its about doing a proper thing that makes sense rather then keep giving us bandaids. If you have a sickness, would you rather cure the sickness or only get rid of its symptoms?

JIN1987, on 17 July 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

--> I don't understand what is so difficult about shooting 2 PPC and the next 2 PPCs after 0,5 seconds... O_o

There are several reasons to have a high alpha:

1) Element of surpise. If you have a 6 PPC Stalker etc you want to stay unseen for as long as you can and then hit an enemy in a spot where that 60 dmg alpha kills him right away or at least makes a hole big enough for him to avoid fight or get killed easily. That at the same time is the reason for so much frustration, because mech like that can one-shot anything up to 80 tons.

2) The more time you need to deal damage with all your weapons the more time you show yourself to an enemy. Again, smth like a PPC Stalker is obviousely not a brawler, so it stays under cover, then pops for half a second, does its dirty job and hides again, thus it can do a ret@rded amount of damage without taking fire itself. When you need to hit 2 PPCs, then 2 more in 0.5 secs and then again 2 more it means that time enemy has to shoot back at you is 3-4 times more.

3) When shooting lights and fast mediums you really want to count your shots. Its hard to hit them as is, so every successful hit you land is important. However, when you (again with 6 PPC Stalker example) shoot all 6 at once it means that all damage is into one spot, which in turn means that the mech you shoot is either dead or has a wound bad enough to be finished off with a couple of MLs etc. On the other hand if you shoot 2+2+2 it has a chance to be spread around the enemy mech, so that its not dead and doesn't really have any significantly damaged parts as well. Again, big change. It is really the reason why people use PPCs, because PPC damage is pinpoint, and lasers damage is spread all over in most cases, just like SRM and LBX damage is. Its different in BT, lasers do pinpoint damage as well, thats why BT weapons are balanced and MWO ones aren't.

4) Finishing blow. When you are almost dead and enemy is almost dead and you either hide behind cover or in an open brawl you want that huge alpha to be able to deliver a most devastating finishing blow possible.

Again, if you change convergence mechanics you solve 1), 2), 3), 4) and whatever else you can come up with. In BT all weapons have chance to hit different parts. Thats why BT boats are balanced and MWO ones aren't.

JIN1987, on 17 July 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

PS: PPCs and ERPPCs are two weapontypes, so this perfectly shows that most people don't start thinking for themselfs... use 2 of each and you will be ok and don't shout at PGI, cause you can't shoot 4 PPCs at the same time...

Not for long, they already said PPCs and ERPPCs will be treated as a same weapon after 30th patch. I just hope they'll be smart enough to treat LLs and ERLLs same way as well as ALL LRMs and ALL SRMs. Oh yeah, and add SSRMs boating heat multiplier as well.

[Stuart Orland]

Hey PGI. I spent hours of time recording videos of testing and seeing how this new patch broke my 6 ER PPC Stalker, rendering them, uploading them, asking detailed questions and offering some advice on the matter. After seeing the kind of attitude your company fosters in game and here though, I found a much simpler solution though that allows me a complete work around. I still have my 6 PPCs and I have no heat penalty. See you chumps who are *********** in the corner about how you'll never have to deal with PPC boats again on the battlefield.

I'd link the video of Vegeta asking Cell if he finally understood how fruitless this all is and that he's been allowing Cell to deceive himself, but apparently Toei took it down. Oh well.

Oh and before you say 'next patch will fix that', this phrase has now been said for the last 5 patches running. PPC Boats cannot be stopped with nerfs. If after 5 patches they still exist and are viable, you're not going to be able to do it at all. Ever. Have fun crying in the corner, community who declare they will find me, kill me and **** my corpse for PPC boating in nearly every game and have fun trying to deal with a problem you can't do anything about PGI.

We are a nightmare that you CANNOT stop. Wake up, we're real.

Edited by Stuart Orland, 17 July 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Jagsmar]

The change to heat management has a bit of unintended consequences. I am use to running mechs with 3 to 4 different weapons, all of which are on the penalty list. Now it it much easier to manage heat by boating 1 weapon type than it is to try to manage a "balanced" mech.

I would much rather see as heat builds, your mech movement slows down (twist, speed, aiming) and weapon convergence starts to drift, but I guess the younger audience is too hung up on headshots or "one shot one kill".

Edited by Jagsmar, 17 July 2013 - 05:51 AM.

[Nefczi]

What I noticed is that everybody and their dog has switched to LRMs since their high alpha builds arent as effective anymore.
Every battle half of the time I have an "Incoming missile" msg flashing on my screen

[Nebelfeuer]

there where a lot of mixed loadouts to be seen last night - overall a success so far.
All that needs to be done is giving a heatpenalty to the weapons currently missing on the chart and restrict LRMs and SRMs by ammount of launchers fired instead of dividing the chart by sizes.

[BigJim]

So much upset, so much drama.

Tbh I think it's a clunky and untidy system, but I have no problem with the results..

Some builds, 4x peep-stalker are still viable, but just have to be played marginally differently (firing 2/2), a team mate managed to pull off over 1k damage last night & 6x kills, but he's very good with that build.
No issues there, it should be a powerful build, and when played correctly, should be effective.

Some builds, such as the 2x peep/gauss phract are unchanged - Good. I don't want to see the ranged-game die in favour of the chaotic mass blob brawling of closed beta.

Close ranged builds are getting more viable. Good. I want to see this too.
My jagerbomb still f**ks s**t up mightly, I just have to really think about if I want that 40x dmg single shot, but firing 1/2 is also very strong.

So overall I think it's a positive move - as I say, untidy way of achieving it, but the net results are better than this time yesterday.

But internet-people gonna cry because that's what internet-people do.

[Cybertek]

I haven't played the game since the changes but it should be interesting. I moved to a 4 PPC Stalker to deal with Jenners and Spiders, and all of the other little mechs that like to run around. I think this puts heavy mechs at a disadvantage a little, this whole situation was created by the whiners who got one shotted in a light, guess what a light should not be able to go head to head with an assault. You need a few lights...

Now I am not one that just used alpha strike all the time, I think before my Misery could fire 2 Alphas and the third would shut it down. So I don't see the issue, now if I was lucky or a light or medium had a bad piolet would kill them typical with a shot or two. I have also been on the recieving end of it too, but I take full blame a light should never stand still. On my misery I have 4 fire groups, 2 PPC (left), 2 PPC (right), 4 Chain, 4 Alpha. Due to the build up of heat, I have learned how to manage it, save Alpha for when I know I can one that pesky Jenner that is running around a circle from me.

In the end, I don't think this will affect to much of this build the way I play it. Although might ditch my one PPC for my Gauss Rifle, or two ER LL and 2 PPC, time to play with some new builds.

[Bloody Moon]

Nefczi, on 17 July 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

What I noticed is that everybody and their dog has switched to LRMs since their high alpha builds arent as effective anymore.
Every battle half of the time I have an "Incoming missile" msg flashing on my screen

Indeed and i see them get stomped over and over by snipers who adapted to the changes.

[Cybertek]

Nefczi, on 17 July 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

What I noticed is that everybody and their dog has switched to LRMs since their high alpha builds arent as effective anymore.
Every battle half of the time I have an "Incoming missile" msg flashing on my screen

Hmm guess time to bring out my Raven with ECM now, lol....

[VagGR]

not the best solution ever..but it works..thats what matters, no more ppc/ac 40 fest...and honestly im ok with that. if there is one thing i dont like thats the 100% heat dmg. make it 110%, give the players that small window to play with. at 110% you more or less get the same anti boating results without punishing guys trying to play balanced builds. other than that games are more interesting now, you see more variaty in builds. and of course poeple keep crying..

- "put the ppc max alpha to 3 because the stock awesome has 3 PPCs". for the 1000000th time. the awesome was meant to carry 3 PPCs but not firing them alpha after alpha after alpha..get it through your heads.
- "my 5LL stalker is useless now because i have to fire my LLs two at a time". thats the whole point! adjust your build and stop crying.

i believe arguments such as these are made by people who just want to keep alpha boating and should not be taken seriously by anyone.

most of us, me included, would like a different solution (such as convergence) but the truth is wether we like it or not the heat scale system actually made a difference. and as i said the game feels better now and im fine with that. there is no point in crying and raging what each of us "thinks" is a better solution..deal with it and provide some feedback instead of childish crying.

[pesco]

I think it shows that PGI's game designer is still poking around in the dark and that everyone involved is desparately trying to avoid admitting that they made a wrong decision in the past.

Seriously, a heat penalty of 24 for an AC20? This makes it flat out obvious that, well, the normal heat doesn't work as a DPS cap and nobody thought of that.

Here is what you should do to heat: Balance damage so that it is a-ok to have Mechs that run heat-neutral. A stock HBK-4P in the tabletop can not overheat under normal conditions until one of its heat sinks is destroyed. So forget about limiting all DPS by heat! Instead, put sensible penalties in place for even small amounts of heat buildup. Fix weapon stacking by getting rid of convergence and introducing cones of fire. If boating is then still a problem, disallow ridiculous builds in the Mechlab.

Just look at the heat scale in the Battletech rulebook for a guide!

* No heat or only one or two points: Everything's fine, no worries.
* A few points: Movement speed starts decreasing, weapons start becoming less accurate.
* A few more points: Small but increasing chance of ammo explosions. Put a big warning marker next to the heat bar at this point.
* A few more points: Small but increasing chance of shutdown. Put another warning marker on the heat bar.

Do the math to scale all your probabilities so they come out equal over 10s to the tabletop's chances per turn.

Really, how hard can it be?

Edited by pesco, 17 July 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[Nauht]

Loving the heat penalties. Much more varied mechs fielded now.

Those 4-6PPC snipers still out there but most have learned to chainfire and were still effective.

Not so many AC40 jagers anymore but there were still a few. Probably at least 1 per battle instead of the 3-4 it used to be.

[Milocinia]

eadipus, on 17 July 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Its hilariously bad and ineffective, ineffective enough that no more money is being spent on this game

Bad - Its needlessly complicated and hasn't been explained properly, still no news on what a Heat Scale Multiplier is; it arbitrarily punishes certain builds not others; for some reason the boomjager/cat got hit hard, no idea why, both were perfect as glass cannons

Ineffective - My 3x PPC + Gauss Highlander now has an ER-PPC for the next two weeks. In two weeks it will be swapped for more heatsinks, my alpha will still be high (35 dmg vs 45 dmg) but my DPS will be better. Gauss hasn't been affected at all and last night was utterly dominant particularly on hot map


Why so much time and effort was spent on this instead of tweaking numbers like internal HPs, heat, RoF, minimum range (the PPC would be a totally different beast if it had a minimum range of 180 and a hard minimum of 90), cycle time, ammo per ton etc is beyond me

Come meet my Highlander on the battlefield. I'll embarass you so hard you'll throw your computer out the window son.

Get your head out of the Alpha/PPC Warrior clouds and you might just find more successful and enjoyable builds to play. Just because everyone else equips this or that, doesn't mean you have to. Adapt and accept the change instead of looking at ways to circumvent it and you might just be the highest scoring player in almost every match like I currently am.