461 replies to this topic

[VagGR]

Inveramsay, on 17 July 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

As a founder you most likely will have played the closed beta, how can you then say no one complained about dual gausses? Had I been drinking something it would have come out my nose how hard I laughed at your statement.

im glad i made you laugh...so when you stop laughing, take a breath and please remind me when was it that dual gausses were a really serious issue, when was it that you would see teams full of dual gauss builds, when were they a meta changing factor, when was such an ourage in the forums about them (like splatcats, LRMpocalypse, ecm or the current high ppc/ac40) that took posts upon posts and patches upon patches in order to fix them....tell me that and then go back to your laughing.

[AgroAlba]

VagGR, on 17 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

im glad i made you laugh...so when you stop laughing, take a breath and please remind me when was it that dual gausses were a really serious issue, when was it that you would see teams full of dual gauss builds, when were they a meta changing factor, when was such an ourage in the forums about them (like splatcats, LRMpocalypse, ecm or the current high ppc/ac40) that took posts upon posts and patches upon patches in order to fix them....tell me that and then go back to your laughing.

They were a huge issue. People argued for hardpoint sizes then. They argued for moving the ballistics hardpoints to the CT. It was a huge reason they made the gauss cannons so fragile. Gausskitties were a thing, they were a big deal, and they caused plenty of outrage.

If the beta forums still existed for me to link to, you'd have your links. But since we can't, well... there ya go.

Edited by AgroAntirrhopus, 17 July 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[VagGR]

AgroAntirrhopus, on 17 July 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

They were a huge issue. People argued for hardpoint sizes then. They argued for moving the ballistics hardpoints to the CT. It was a huge reason they made the gauss cannons so fragile. Gausskitties were a thing, they were a big deal, and they caused plenty of outrage.

If the beta forums still existed for me to link to, you'd have your links. But since we can't, well... there ya go.

they were never in a state that bad as the examples i mentioned, and having their hitpoints reduced to 3 did NOT change the damage output or the firing rate, and there were no complains about them for a long time so coming back to my original point 30 points of dmg is managable

in any case lets try to stay on topic....

Edited by VagGR, 17 July 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[Razerbeast]

This patch isn't about nerfing heat, this patch is about PGI making us do what they want. They want to control how we are building our mechs. They're now telling us how many of each weapon to use or else face consequences (ie; shutdown and internal damage). if only this game was about builds; this game is about skill. So the weapons im using does not matter. The problem lies with the fact that i am not allowed to build the mechs i want to build without facing serious consequences. When a company tries to exert this much control over a game it is a huge failure. Now everyone will have approximately the same builds and the crappy players will still be crappy and the skilled players will still be killing them. The patch adds no value to the game and the arbitriary heat multipliers make no sense.

You wanna fix alpha; state that when you alpha strike the reload times are increased by 10% for every weapon beyond the second. 6 weapon alpha would increased reload time by 40% making a 5s second reload time 7s. Theres a hundred ways to deal with it; this heat scale is junk.

[Nauht]

Razerbeast, on 17 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

This patch isn't about nerfing heat, this patch is about PGI making us do what they want. They want to control how we are building our mechs. They're now telling us how many of each weapon to use or else face consequences (ie; shutdown and internal damage). if only this game was about builds; this game is about skill. So the weapons im using does not matter. The problem lies with the fact that i am not allowed to build the mechs i want to build without facing serious consequences. When a company tries to exert this much control over a game it is a huge failure. Now everyone will have approximately the same builds and the crappy players will still be crappy and the skilled players will still be killing them. The patch adds no value to the game and the arbitriary heat multipliers make no sense.

You wanna fix alpha; state that when you alpha strike the reload times are increased by 10% for every weapon beyond the second. 6 weapon alpha would increased reload time by 40% making a 5s second reload time 7s. Theres a hundred ways to deal with it; this heat scale is junk.

Say what?

You can still field any config you want, yes even the 6PPC stalker. You're now discouraged from alpha'ing them, use chainfire.

So you arbitrarily rant about control when the heat changes don't affect ANY build if you chainfire (as they intended) when the intended effect is to limit alpha... but yet propose an alpha control of your own.

Irony much?

[Mystere]

eadipus, on 17 July 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Its needlessly complicated and hasn't been explained properly, still no news on what a Heat Scale Multiplier is ...

To be fair, the heat calculation equation is very simple:

(N * H) + ((N - M) * P)

where
N = number of weapons of same type
H = normal weapon heat
M = maximum number of weapons before penalty
P = heat penalty

[Mystere]

flaser, on 17 July 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Am I seeing things or do PPCs actually get a bigger penalty than ERPPCs? Why penalize a weapon (PPC) when it already has so many drawbacks (great heat, non-hitscan behaviour, minimum range)?

Also "merging" the two PPCs variants heat-vise seems like a bone-headed decision, as it'd make the ERPPC a superior weapon all around. Right now, PPCs are a choice for builds that try to maximize *sustained* firepower, instead maximum alpha at the expense of range.

BTW, I'm fine with the 2 alpha limit on normal and ER PPCs, it just strikes me incredulous that the weapon with lesser heat buildup would be more penalized.

If you do the math, the ERPPC will still run hotter.

[Oy of MidWorld]

Great battles so far. Don't change anything about the heat penalties, they work great. Battles feel a lot more BattleTech if not everyone alpha's all the time.

Except, PPC's and ERPPC's should be treated as one for penalizing.

Razerbeast, on 17 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

This patch isn't about nerfing heat, this patch is about PGI making us do what they want. They want to control how we are building our mechs. They're now telling us how many of each weapon to use or else face consequences (ie; shutdown and internal damage). if only this game was about builds; this game is about skill. So the weapons im using does not matter. The problem lies with the fact that i am not allowed to build the mechs i want to build without facing serious consequences. When a company tries to exert this much control over a game it is a huge failure. Now everyone will have approximately the same builds and the crappy players will still be crappy and the skilled players will still be killing them. The patch adds no value to the game and the arbitriary heat multipliers make no sense.

You wanna fix alpha; state that when you alpha strike the reload times are increased by 10% for every weapon beyond the second. 6 weapon alpha would increased reload time by 40% making a 5s second reload time 7s. Theres a hundred ways to deal with it; this heat scale is junk.

PGI would have no reason to behave the way you described, if everything was fine. This game has a BT backround and is based on it's lore. Many people would like to play more varied (less stupid) builds, but would be at a disadvantage. This is why the changes make a lot of sense and encourage variation.

The solution you proposed (after stating that no solution was necessary) is unrealistic and doesn't adress the problem, which is not alphastrikes, but alphastrikes with multiples of the same type of weapon.

Edited by Oy of MidWorld, 17 July 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[Orzorn]

I don't like this system. It DOES solve some issues, but it creates problems of its own and favors builds like the 2 PPC + Guass build. It also hurts already garbage mechs like the Awesome and other mechs like it with a large number (or entirely made up of) energy hardpoints.

The new meta is going to be 2 ERPPC/2PPC + Gauss. This higher heat, higher alpha meta will continue until PGI realizes their heat system is messed up from the bottom up.

DHS should be true doubles. The heat cap should be 30 and only 30 (heat sinks no longer add to the heat cap). That means the max PPCs able to be fired would be 3. The max ERPPCs would be 2 (if they were increased to 10 and 15 heat, respectively).

I think this new system is overly complex for new players, especially considering there is no explanation in-client of its existence. I think this system will be a hammer and everything will look like a nail to PGI. Please do not abuse this system to try to fight the metagame. The reason these high alpha builds continue to appear has very much to do with your huge heat cap thanks to double heat sinks giving +2 to the heat cap, allowing Stalkers to have 60 max heat, meaning high heat alphas are pretty much the only way to even make use of that high of a cap.

These high alpha builds are also a symptom of the game's ability to pinpoint your damage. You once had a convergence system, but as you answered in the last Ask the Devs, that system seems deprecated and in dire need of engineer attention. Convergence was supposed to be this game's answer to pin-point damage, but now that it no longer exists, pin-point damage is king.

I urge PGI to reconsider this heat penalty system and to rethink the base heat system and potentially add heat penalties (movement, firing speed, etc) akin to the desktop heat system. As long as riding 99% heat causes no issues and DHS add +2 to the heat cap, people will continue to use high heat, high alpha builds.

Edited by Orzorn, 17 July 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[Zargar The Barbar]

BulzEye, on 17 July 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

This makes all energy Alpha strikes useless IMHO... I played a 4 and 5 ppc stalker and could not NOT shut down... And whatever you do, do not override more than once... you go boom - even with coolant. This new model sucks. Changing it to this after everyone who is not new has learned to dial in heat management is not condusive to continued game play. I know, I know... Silly me actually PAID for the Phoenix project... I am very disappointed. Maybe I'll learn to become a no skill missile jock... oh wait, where's the fun in that... (can't wait to see the flack that statement starts! )

LOL is this guy trolling? Hey buddy PPC stalkers are one of the main reason we needed this. Now it lets other builds play competitively.

Edited by Zargar The Barbar, 17 July 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Patch observations:
PPC boats diminished, replaced by PPC + Gauss (less burst damage)
Lower burst means increased survivability/viability of Brawlers (SRM boost also contributes)
Lower burst also means LRMs are competitively viable vs. PPC/Gauss
All in all I am see more weapon balanced teams, but fewer weight balanced teams.

On going Issues: Role Warfare
Assault-warrior online. Even though PPC stalkers are fewer, their cousins the Gauss + PPC snipers have taken their place, followed by a handful of Assault LRM boats, and a trickle of Assault brawlers. Basically in a 16 player match usually 12 of them are Assault mechs, with an occasional scout and the rest filled up with Heavies (usually the jump sniper, LRM boat, or SRM boat variety).

I think a major contributing factor is projectile speed. Mech movement is relatively slow compared to projectile/missile movement, this amplifies all other issues against medium mechs, which carry too little armor to survive even this reduced alpha attacks. It is just too easy to hit moving targets. Anything slower than 90kph doesn’t even require leading within optimal (500m) range. I feel the best solution to this issue is reducing projectile speed. Find a happy medium where 50kph is still relatively easy to hit, but 75kph offers an opportunity to actively evade, 100kph is tough to hit, and 125kphs is time to bring out the beam and guided weapons. Basically drop projectile speeds to 66%-75% of their current value, I think that change will make medium and slow-lights a more viable option.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 17 July 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Razerbeast]

The right to choose how we build and play our mechs has been stripped away.

[Razerbeast]

Oy of MidWorld, on 17 July 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Great battles so far. Don't change anything about the heat penalties, they work great. Battles feel a lot more BattleTech if not everyone alpha's all the time.

Except, PPC's and ERPPC's should be treated as one for penalizing.





The solution you proposed (after stating that no solution was necessary) is unrealistic and doesn't adress the problem, which is not alphastrikes, but alphastrikes with multiples of the same type of weapon.

at which point did i state no solution is necessary. I'm saying the game isnt' about builds, it's about skill. If it's about skill then unless they're trying to make us more skilled the heat scale is useless. cant fix stupid.

[BulzEye]

Zargar The Barbar, on 17 July 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

LOL is this guy trolling? Hey buddy PPC stalkers are one of the main reason we needed this. Now it lets other builds play competitively.

So trolling am I? 6PPC has it's disadvantages already - can't alpha more than once! lol. Really though, I do run a 5 PPC stalker and sometimes config'd (past tense) my Misery with 4 ERPPC's. One alpha in either and I am maxed out on heat. Ihave been using chain fire (as somebody said earlier in this post and groups of 2 PPCs. I learned heat management and only used ALpha to deal a killing blow... well mostly! The PPC Stalker and Awesome required some good heat management skill to run. Coolant only prevented a meltdown and actually doesn't do much. I run Stalkers mostly, but do have a few others... I don't always get high damage as I know how to aim in the same (general) spot for each shot to punch a hole in an enemy. I actually have been experimenting and have found a decent loadout for the Misery that does not have the fire power it used to, but the heat sink load out and current weps allow for many more shots before approaching dangerous heat levels... Yeah maybe I was looking for someone to bite, but I do think they went way overboard.

Edited by BulzEye, 17 July 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 16 July 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

If something is MULTIPLIED by 1 its value does not change, lol.
I guess it's not multiplier at all, but extra heat generated (by each weapon above limit maybe?).

Yep this is what's happening. What I'm unclear about is whether the heat penalty stacks with each PPC above 2 or whether it's a flat addition of +7 if any number of PPCs r fired together. This latter position makes more sense but I still dont get why a symptom is being addressed rather than the cause of the issue which is high dmg pinpoint alphas. This can still be done and coordinated by a skilled team and simply makes many mediocre chassis less viable.

[Oy of MidWorld]

Razerbeast, on 17 July 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

at which point did i state no solution is necessary. I'm saying the game isnt' about builds, it's about skill. If it's about skill then unless they're trying to make us more skilled the heat scale is useless. cant fix stupid.

It is about skill. As it should be. But it should be about more different skills than just aiming and releasing four to six PPC's or two AC20's at once. Managing different weapon groups, firing three to four different types of weapon effectively are skills too, and they are a lot harder to master. If used effectively, these skills should give a good mechwarrior an advantage. Which is not really the case yet. But as the heat changes discourage boating, they are clearly a step in the right direction.

On a sidenote, piloting should be an important skill too. Which is why we desperately need proper collision and knockdown behavior.

[Shaddie]

Razerbeast, on 17 July 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

The right to choose how we build and play our mechs has been stripped away.

Hmmm... last time I checked you can still build your Mech the way you could on Monday. If by "playing" your mech you refer to running around Alpha striking, then yes, good I'm glad that has been stripped away. And heck, you can still run around AS'ing.. you just need to put a little more thought into it... a good thing. My .02

Oy of MidWorld, on 17 July 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

It is about skill. As it should be. But it should be about more different skills than just aiming and releasing four to six PPC's or two AC20's at once. Managing different weapon groups, firing three to four different types of weapon effectively are skills too, and they are a lot harder to master. If used effectively, these skills should give a good mechwarrior an advantage. Which is not really the case yet. But as the heat changes discourage boating, they are clearly a step in the right direction.

On a sidenote, piloting should be an important skill too. Which is why we desperately need proper collision and knockdown behavior.

YES - *massive applause*

[tigermaster]

Acid Phase, on 16 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

QFT





Sorry guys, but you can no longer use the



Your mechs were not meant to alpha fire every single time you wanted it. I suggest you heat manage better. Good job PGI, you are getting closer to balance.

you can easily bypass this limitation, manually or with a macro, doesn't matter, it's a bad idea cause can be avoided so no significant changes basically.

i have to test it but what about a macro that delay shots by 10ms ? no penalty and the shoot is almost an alpha strike.
no sense to me.

[Razerbeast]

Oy of MidWorld, on 17 July 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

It is about skill. As it should be. But it should be about more different skills than just aiming and releasing four to six PPC's or two AC20's at once. Managing different weapon groups, firing three to four different types of weapon effectively are skills too, and they are a lot harder to master. If used effectively, these skills should give a good mechwarrior an advantage. Which is not really the case yet. But as the heat changes discourage boating, they are clearly a step in the right direction.

On a sidenote, piloting should be an important skill too. Which is why we desperately need proper collision and knockdown behavior.

This patch hasn't changed boating tho, ppl are still doing it and winning games. Patch is a failure. Personally i use none of the problem boats, but objectively speaking, this patch adds no value to the game.

[BulzEye]

tigermaster, on 17 July 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

you can easily bypass this limitation, manually or with a macro, doesn't matter, it's a bad idea cause can be avoided so no significant changes basically.

i have to test it but what about a macro that delay shots by 10ms ? no penalty and the shoot is almost an alpha strike.
no sense to me.

So tell me about macro's? I have a Jager (yes - something other than a Stalker) with 4 AC2's only(so much fun - Until you run out of ammo! ). I current try to manually get them to rapid cycle which is only somewhat effective. I would love to tweak it.