90 replies to this topic

[krolmir]

SRMs good, heat good, good patch overall. I was thrilled when I killed myself by overheat. That's the way it should be.

[fleshwoundNPG]

Making SSRMs less powerful than SRMs is not only fair, but far more realistic. Why? The guidance systems in the front of the SSRMs (and LRMs) take up space, therefore less space for a powerful warhead. Also SSRMs and LRMs need to be lighter for better maneuverability to hit moving targets.

SRMs need not worry about that and can therefore pack a bigger warhead and a much bigger punch.

Those of you still crying about SSRMs doing less damage, don't come back crying to us when a salvo of twin (...or more!) clan SSRM6s core your a$$ in the near future...

Edited by fleshwoundNPG, 16 July 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[Shakespeare]

fleshwoundNPG, on 16 July 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Making SSRMs less powerful than SRMs is not only fair, but far more realistic. Why? The guidance systems in the front of the SSRMs (and LRMs) take up space, therefore less space for a powerful warhead. Also SSRMs and LRMs need to be lighter for better maneuverability to hit moving targets.

SRMs need not worry about that and can therefore pack a bigger warhead and a much bigger punch.

Those of you still crying about SSRMs doing less damage, don't come back crying to us when a salvo of twin (...or more!) clan SSRM6s core your a$$ in the near future...

It's not so much that there's a difference in total damage, it's that the tracking algorithm is weighted so far away from Torso that it limits their utility.

Few of my mechs use streaks, mainly the ones that I need a little light-defense on, but I have to be more careful now, since I can't trust that my piddly 1.5 dmg per missile is going to do anything significant when spread all across the possible target zones.
I get that they had to be adjusted away from the joints, since that was benefiting some chassis, but not others. I just wish the total distribution was a LITTLE more torso-oriented. Limb-hit chance is just so much higher as a total. woo-hoo, I applied 1.5 damage to each arm. Glad we fixed that! *frowns*

So yeah, I can see the objection. Won't effect me too much, though.

[C12AZyED]

Highly approve of the new damage value. Feels like a well balanced compromise between when it was OP to when it was UP. It should stay at 2.0. Streaks should also stay at 1.5 which I think was a good decision. Possible refining of the spread pattern in the future would be good. Should be somewhat tighter at close range I feel.

[Theodor Kling]

New SRM dmg plays great and as a side effect ( like predicted by Paul) enhances hit detection problems: My triple SRM6+Art salvoes shred much more armour per hit the heavier the target. It actually take less clean hits (at least grapicly shown ones) for killing heavies then lights sometimes. And I am not speaking about dual gauss Jägermechs with their paper armour.

Edit: Haven't tried SSRMs yet, but they do seem rather leg centric on paper

Edited by Theodor Kling, 16 July 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[John MatriX82]

Tennex, on 16 July 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

good change A1s are usable again.

But i think a mechanics change would be really cool to make them more appealing and dynamic.


A reward for the risk of closing that gap.

^This. And this again.

But in general they feel more useful now, they don't feel like spitting peanuts to mechs like before this patch. We aren't there yet, but in the meantime that hit detection and splash damage doesn't get addressed they are more helpful and will help bringing back some brawling, thanks for slipping 2.0 dmg in this patch nevertheless.

I'd still like to have back the old flightpath though.

[hargneux]

This is a awesome change, and long overdue. Thank you for making brawler and striker builds viable again.

This totally makes the quickdraw a viable mech now, I've been having fun all day playing ML + SRM striker build.

It's been fun making people who've gotten a little too comfortable with the ranged fire metagame crap their pants when you drop out of the sky behind them and peel open their backs with an SRM12

Edited by hargneux, 17 July 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[Jam the Bam]

Played a few games last night against SRM users and using SRM's myself and they felt just right, keep 2 damage, I felt like I was able to hurt people while the few splatcats I saw (there's always someone going to try it) weren't OP or that scary.

[Seelenlos]

Hi,

IMBA again... but at this you are masters Devs

Maybe you should do it like this:

Make a change, see two days when the IMBA-Players switch to a Mech-Type, then you know you have done something wrong.

Why not other Methods: because after nearly two years of development, it seems you have still no DB to make a mathematical comparison of damage changes and game impacts.

The simplest theory in BT/MW is/was, high damage = high heat = shutdown = internal damage = external enemy damage = death <> you should avoid as a good MW

I think there is still some minor changes needed for the SRM. When two splat cats can mostly destroy an entire company then there is something wrong with balancing. Specially when you see so many of them are now online. Two bad indicators.

I have no problem being killed in a good game, but being every time killed by one build ... judge yourself

Regards

P.S.: Maybe some minor damage down or some major Heat up...

[Metalmantis]

I am glad to see the srm,s damage somewhat better as now I have a higher% of defending against Splat cats and AC Jags. Thank you for letting me knock the dust off my used to be worthless mechs.

[Iscarius]

Happy with SRM change. I was running four SRM6s on my Stalker, so I changed one of them to an SRM4 to get around the heat penalty, lol. Was cranking out lots of damage.

But Streaks are now worthless. Even if you have 4 of them, that's 12 unfocused damage. Horrible.

[Buckminster]

I guess what confuses me is that LRMs and SSRMs lock on using different mechanics. LRMs now cluster towards center mass, and SSRMs spread out way too much.

My Cent-A has three SSRMs in the torso. From playing this morning, I have to say that the SSRM spread mechanic is wonky. I'd have times where I am at close range to someone (<200m), and I'd fire my streaks straight at them. The missiles would launch in a tight cluster, and then just as they were about to hit the target, they'd spread out and hit different body parts. All 6 would start headed straight towards the torso, but one would break down to a leg, two might break towards one arm while another would break towards another arm, and the other two would hit torso. It just seems counter intuitive that SSRMs would intentionally alter their course to spread their damage out. If I had been firing a regular SRM, all the missiles would have hit torso. Instead, 2/3rds of them veered away to other body parts.

LRMs on the other hand, seem to be making a beeline towards center mass. One match I took some heavy LRM fire, and was finished off by a medium laser shot. My center torso was missing, and all other armor was still light yellow. So it seems that maybe 80% of the missiles that hit me hit CT.

[ShinVector]

Regarding... SSRMs... Hahaha.. Finally it was done as requested.
Light vs Light battles will now no longer be about the mech with Streaks.

This also benefits light mech in a different way. Bigger missile mechs with now have to think really hard what they want to do with their hardpoints. 100% track but random damage, dumbfire but higher damage or long range. Take your pick buddies... Light and medium mechs finally get the buff in life expectancy they needed for so, long !

The only issue left.:

• To be fair SSRMs should have the TT damage of 2.0 returned.
  
• There is a good chance SSRMs have the same hit detection problems that SRMs has (making them weaker then they seem) and this should be fixed.

All this QQ about streaks... Random targeting was intended trade off 100% tracking.
Learn how to use lasers and SRMs if you can't take it crybabies.

Edited by ShinVector, 17 July 2013 - 05:39 AM.

[Seelenlos]

Buckminster, on 17 July 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

...

LRMs on the other hand, seem to be making a beeline towards center mass. One match I took some heavy LRM fire, and was finished off by a medium laser shot. My center torso was missing, and all other armor was still light yellow. So it seems that maybe 80% of the missiles that hit me hit CT.

Hi,

is it possible to change it that way for SRM:

enemy not targeted (ent): 20% ct
enemy targeted (et): 40% ct

ent + TAG = 30%
ent + Artemis = 40 %
ent + TAG+ Art = 60%

et + TAG = 70%
et + ART = 70%
et + TAG + Art = 90 %

and also spreading the for LRM:

Non targeting (area effect if hit at all) = 10% - 30%
ET = 50% - 70% spread all
ET + TAG = 60% - 80%
ET + ARt = 60% - 80%
ET + Narc = 60% - 80%
ET + ART + TAG = 80% - 90%
ET + NARC + TAG = 80% - 90%

And at game beginnen make a calculation of 100% hit chance and Headshot chance on both team and give it to a random player.

hope you understand how I mean it in my poor english.

Regards

[ShinVector]

Seelenlos, on 17 July 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Hi,

is it possible to change it that way for SRM:

enemy not targeted (ent): 20% ct
enemy targeted (et): 40% ct

ent + TAG = 30%
ent + Artemis = 40 %
ent + TAG+ Art = 60%

et + TAG = 70%
et + ART = 70%
et + TAG + Art = 90 %

and also spreading the for LRM:

Non targeting (area effect if hit at all) = 10% - 30%
ET = 50% - 70% spread all
ET + TAG = 60% - 80%
ET + ARt = 60% - 80%
ET + Narc = 60% - 80%
ET + ART + TAG = 80% - 90%
ET + NARC + TAG = 80% - 90%

And at game beginnen make a calculation of 100% hit chance and Headshot chance on both team and give it to a random player.

hope you understand how I mean it in my poor english.

Regards

Uhhh... the % hit doesn't make much sense for SRMs... They are direct fire weapons, it is all the about aiming like the other direct fire weapons.
What is screwing up SRMs is the nonsense right from the start wide spread they have now and the poor hit detection.
If they fix this problems.. SRMs would be much better weapons.

I am hoping the tracking that hit SSRMs will also hit LRMs eventually. Hate me LRM boats.

[Darwins Dog]

SRMs feel much better now. Against the big mechs they are doing noticeable damage. I still stick to lasers against light mechs, but my SRM mechs are feeling like they are worth taking.

Haven't tried SSRMs yet, but on paper it looks like a BIG nerf to them. Not too worried though, because that looks like it would be easy to adjust the numbers if necessary.

Buckminster, on 17 July 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

LRMs on the other hand, seem to be making a beeline towards center mass. One match I took some heavy LRM fire, and was finished off by a medium laser shot. My center torso was missing, and all other armor was still light yellow. So it seems that maybe 80% of the missiles that hit me hit CT.

If the shooter has TAG and Artemis (and LOS) then that's not surprising. In the testing grounds (not the same as live, but close) my Treb with 2x ALRM15s can core the Atlas in 4-5 volleys. It also depending on what you are piloting and the size of the CT. Not saying it's right, but that's what it is.

[Buckminster]

ShinVector, on 17 July 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

All this QQ about streaks... Random targeting was intended trade off 100% tracking.

Learn how to use lasers and SRMs if you can't take it crybabies.

It isn't necessarily QQ about Streaks not being an easy button any more, it's about the fact that it doesn't make sense that 20 missiles fired at 800m can hit a tighter group than 2 missiles at 200m.

ShinVector, on 17 July 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

I am hoping the tracking that hit SSRMs will also hit LRMs eventually. Hate me LRM boats.

Um, yeah, I guess like you just said.

Darwins Dog, on 17 July 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

If the shooter has TAG and Artemis (and LOS) then that's not surprising. In the testing grounds (not the same as live, but close) my Treb with 2x ALRM15s can core the Atlas in 4-5 volleys. It also depending on what you are piloting and the size of the CT. Not saying it's right, but that's what it is.

I was in a Centurion, a mech that's fairly well known for it's survivability due to it's torso sizes. I don't think he had Artemis or tag, but I could be wrong on that - I don't recall seeing the red tag laser or the spinny missile pattern of Artemis.

[ShinVector]

Buckminster, on 17 July 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

It isn't necessarily QQ about Streaks not being an easy button any more, it's about the fact that it doesn't make sense that 20 missiles fired at 800m can hit a tighter group than 2 missiles at 200m.

Anyway TT doesn't make much sense.
At least this gives you a pro and con versus SRM2 and SSRM2 doesn't it ?

Also the current changes will balance Clan SSRM6 as well.
Sure it going to cause 12 damage per shot at 100% tracking but having it spread all over the targeted means it is no longer and Insta-Core guided weapon.

This was one of the main reason why I kept insisting they put these changes in.
I mean, if people cry too much later that the damage is too lower or what ever... Just buff the damage like they did with LRMs.

But as mentioned earlier.. I believe SSRM hit detection is also bugged so, they are weak than they really are. I haven't been playing MWO to test this out.

Edited by ShinVector, 17 July 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[80Bit]

Why SSRM damage was spread out but damage per missile stayed the same is beyond me. It's not like there was some problem with people running overpowered SSRM builds.

With the ridiculously low travel speed of SRMS, using them in light on light fighting has a fairly high skill threshold. This leaves SSRMs as a "slow mech vs light mech weapon", and even in that case time will tell if they are even worth packing in that scenario.

I would love it it one day they could fix one weapon without killing another at the same time.

[KitK]

Buckminster, on 17 July 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

I guess what confuses me is that LRMs and SSRMs lock on using different mechanics. LRMs now cluster towards center mass, and SSRMs spread out way too much.

My Cent-A has three SSRMs in the torso. From playing this morning, I have to say that the SSRM spread mechanic is wonky. I'd have times where I am at close range to someone (<200m), and I'd fire my streaks straight at them. The missiles would launch in a tight cluster, and then just as they were about to hit the target, they'd spread out and hit different body parts. All 6 would start headed straight towards the torso, but one would break down to a leg, two might break towards one arm while another would break towards another arm, and the other two would hit torso. It just seems counter intuitive that SSRMs would intentionally alter their course to spread their damage out. If I had been firing a regular SRM, all the missiles would have hit torso. Instead, 2/3rds of them veered away to other body parts.

LRMs on the other hand, seem to be making a beeline towards center mass. One match I took some heavy LRM fire, and was finished off by a medium laser shot. My center torso was missing, and all other armor was still light yellow. So it seems that maybe 80% of the missiles that hit me hit CT.

While I would agree that it probably looks odd with the sudden vector change at the last second, it might keep leg tracking missiles from hitting a bump on the ground before getting to the target. Secondly, they have supposedly been doing this for quite a while now, except that they were targeting joints between components instead of the center of the components. This allowed splash damage between components to spread damage around. It would seem that wasn't working so well. So. moving the hit location from the joint between a leg and a side torso to the center of a leg would give more of a drastic, illogical fight appearence.

Now on to other things...
It's a nice implementation of how streaks are described it TT. I would imagine they will get their damage pulled up to 2 as balancing continues, but if not I would suggest a critical damage/chance buff. If streak tracking works out well it could be a nice model for 5-LRM cluster tracking too.

SRMs seemed fine in my Commando. My Blackjack's encounter with the Splatcat didn't go well, but then again I was out tonned and over doining it with my 8 lasers, so I shouldn't be surprised.