545 replies to this topic

[Bilbo]

3rdworld, on 17 July 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

BTW, you cannot use Chain Fire for 2x2 PPCs, it will trigger the penalty.

Their own chain fire mechanic doesn't work with the idiocy that is Paul's balance schemes.

Fast Fire doesn't affect chain fire. It affects recycle times. Chain fire is .5 seconds, period.

As to the OP, yeah, seems to be working pretty much as intended. Some tweaking yet to do, but overall a much better experience last night and this morning.

[3rdworld]

Bilbo, on 17 July 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Fast Fire doesn't affect chain fire. It affects recycle times. Chain fire is .5 seconds, period.

As to the OP, yeah, seems to be working pretty much as intended. Some tweaking yet to do, but overall a much better experience last night and this morning.

That is a cool story and all. It is too bad it doesn't work in game.

Test yourself before posting.

[MaddMaxx]

El Bandito, on 16 July 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

No. It is overly complicated and can be easily circumvented by smarter players.

LOL! If it can be "easily circumvented", then it can't really be all that complicated now can it.

[Kaldor]

Its not perfect, but its a start.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

3rdworld, on 17 July 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

I don't have a macro written to try it. I can probably give it a shot tonight.

All I know, they said that chain firing them 2 then 2 won't trigger the penalty because the CD on CF is supposed to be .5 secs. And that is completely false.

Edit: My guess, that chain firing is effected by the pilot skill "Fast Fire". However PGI didn't think to take it into consideration when laying the rotten egg that is Paul's heat scale.

Edit #2: I have a un-elited QKD, that I can get 4 PPCs on. I will test it tonight as well and see if my intuition is correct.

I think you are confusing how chain fire works.

If you have 2 Groups of PPC's, and they are linked to button 1 and button 2 of your mouse.

They fire independently of eachother with no cooldowns.

So if you jam the buttons to fire, you will fire both sets and incur a penalty.

If you fire group 1, then wait .5 seconds and fire group 2, you will not incur a penalty.

If you group all 4 PPC's in one group, and set them to chain fire, you will not incur a penalty due to the forced .5 second wait between each shot.

This is why the system is totally convoluted, how do you make that make sense to new players? Or even veterans?

[Lugh]

Donnie Silveray, on 16 July 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I haven't seen a single PPC Boat or Jagerbombs, plus I see an increase in brawling. I'd say the system works good as a deterrent for ridiculous builds thus far.

On the other hand I weep for the Awesome.

I've seen a couple of each and we destroyed them easily.

The heat changes mean that those that make the most mistakes lose more often and earlier...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MaddMaxx, on 17 July 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

LOL! If it can be "easily circumvented", then it can't really be all that complicated now can it.

Easily circumvented and complicated can go together.

It's complicated in the sense of explaining it, like I did in the above post, makes it look convoluted and arbitrary which it is.

And it's easy to circumvent in the fact that IF you are a veteran player, you know how to shift things around.

It's just a terrible system.

[Lugh]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

I think you are confusing how chain fire works.

If you have 2 Groups of PPC's, and they are linked to button 1 and button 2 of your mouse.

They fire independently of eachother with no cooldowns.

So if you jam the buttons to fire, you will fire both sets and incur a penalty.

If you fire group 1, then wait .5 seconds and fire group 2, you will not incur a penalty.

If you group all 4 PPC's in one group, and set them to chain fire, you will not incur a penalty due to the forced .5 second wait between each shot.

This is why the system is totally convoluted, how do you make that make sense to new players? Or even veterans?

IF that doesn't make sense to you, I really weep for humanity.

[3rdworld]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

I think you are confusing how chain fire works.

If you have 2 Groups of PPC's, and they are linked to button 1 and button 2 of your mouse.

They fire independently of eachother with no cooldowns.

So if you jam the buttons to fire, you will fire both sets and incur a penalty.

If you fire group 1, then wait .5 seconds and fire group 2, you will not incur a penalty.

If you group all 4 PPC's in one group, and set them to chain fire, you will not incur a penalty due to the forced .5 second wait between each shot.

This is why the system is totally convoluted, how do you make that make sense to new players? Or even veterans?

I know exactly how it works

I set 2 ppcs in 2 groups both to chain fire. Shoot groups 1 &2, it fires 2 PPCs then 2 PPCs. But it always incurred a Heat penalty when doing this equal to alpha'ing the weapons. Meaning the time for the penalty is wrong, or Chainfire is messed up. FYI on a 20 DHS mastered stalker 4 PPCs sends it to around 85% heat on a normal map.

Edited by 3rdworld, 17 July 2013 - 07:02 AM.

[Noxcuse]

******** system..no more ppc boats more lrm and srm boats...same problem as before..igp dont play the game??? srm boats killing assault with 3-4 shoots
and the victor has an problem with the torso damage...u get 2 ac20 shoots in the torso...and lost more than 40 points...is an 50/50% chance for this problem/exploit....


this patch was more tahn useless....

[Nicholas Carlyle]

3rdworld, on 17 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

I know exactly how it works

I set 2 ppcs in 2 groups both to chain fire. Shoot groups 1 &2, it fires 2 PPCs then 2 PPCs. There can never be more than 2 PPCs in a .5 second window if chainfire uses a .5 second CD. But it always incurred a Heat penalty when doing this. Meaning the time for the penalty is wrong, or Chainfire is messed up.

Ok so wait...

You have 2 groups. 2 PPC's in each group. And each group is set to chain fire.

And some how you are incurring the 3 PPC penalty?

So if you shoot group 1 at .5, and group 2 .25 seconds later, then fire group 1 again immediately after cooldown is up.

Could that be potentially causing the issue?

That's really annoying to try and figure out.

Lugh, on 17 July 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

IF that doesn't make sense to you, I really weep for humanity.

Obviously I can explain it, so I understand it, but it's freaking stupid when I type it out and read it.

It doesn't flow at all with the game. It's arbitrary. And it gets even sillier when you have to explain WHAT it does to each weapon type.

[MaddMaxx]

The system is in place. Where there are noticeable gaps, like the 2 PPC and Gauss build, then dropping the PPC to 1 before penalty (and adjust the penalty if need be) is not out of the question. The complaints will persist as the Alpha Queens will not want to give up their beloved ranged Alpha game play.

The issue was/is Alpha damage output. This system can be modified as necessary to prevent other combinations of high Alpha output, depending on what the Dev decide is an acceptable value. We are, after all, driving Large BattleMechs that can, by themselves, supposedly, devastate whole cities solo.

When the Alpha Queens QQ'ing gets really loud, then the system will be performing as intended. It won't be long either.

[3rdworld]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Ok so wait...

You have 2 groups. 2 PPC's in each group. And each group is set to chain fire.

And some how you are incurring the 3 PPC penalty?

So if you shoot group 1 at .5, and group 2 .25 seconds later, then fire group 1 again immediately after cooldown is up.

Could that be potentially causing the issue?

That's really annoying to try and figure out.

No, I am incurring a 4 PPC penalty. And if the timing is correct at .5 seconds, it does not matter how I shoot them, I can never get more than 2 PPCs in a .5 seconds window when set to 2 groups.

Yet the game consistently gave me a full 4 ppc heat penalty.

Edit: At most latency or server issue could have given me a 3 PPC penalty. But I always ended over 80% heat or ~4 PPC heat penalty

Edited by 3rdworld, 17 July 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

3rdworld, on 17 July 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

No, I am incurring a 4 PPC penalty. And if the timing is correct at .5 seconds, it does not matter how I shoot them, I can never get more than 2 PPCs in a .5 seconds window when set to 2 groups.

Yet the game consistently gave me a full 4 ppc heat penalty.

Edit: At most latency or server issue could have given me a 3 PPC penalty. But I always ended over 80% heat or ~4 PPC heat penalty

Man I just don't know then.

[MaddMaxx]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Easily circumvented and complicated can go together.

It's complicated in the sense of explaining it, like I did in the above post, makes it look convoluted and arbitrary which it is.

And it's easy to circumvent in the fact that IF you are a veteran player, you know how to shift things around.

It's just a terrible system.

Oh you mean "shift around" as in simply build all your Mechs the same? 2 (er)PPC and a Gauss? That is very creative, and likely to have that " overly complicated" system come crashing down on that as well.

If you did not get the memo, the system was put in place to affect "Alpha output". That is the goal. Not ones ability to effectively cause pain to the enemy. No reason the 2 and G can't get some love as well, after the PPC's get merged.

[Rascula]

Tried it, liked it, loved the not getting cored by a damn pop tarting ppc mule.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MaddMaxx, on 17 July 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

The system is in place. Where there are noticeable gaps, like the 2 PPC and Gauss build, then dropping the PPC to 1 before penalty (and adjust the penalty if need be) is not out of the question. The complaints will persist as the Alpha Queens will not want to give up their beloved ranged Alpha game play.

The issue was/is Alpha damage output. This system can be modified as necessary to prevent other combinations of high Alpha output, depending on what the Dev decide is an acceptable value. We are, after all, driving Large BattleMechs that can, by themselves, supposedly, devastate whole cities solo.

When the Alpha Queens QQ'ing gets really loud, then the system will be performing as intended. It won't be long either.

Go find anyone that has EVER seen me in an Alpha build. And I'm complaining. Because I can use freaking common sense. And i'm not a rediculous white knighter.

0, nada, none of my builds are at all effected by these changes.

And I still consider them worthless and arbitrary.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 17 July 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MaddMaxx, on 17 July 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Oh you mean "shift around" as in simply build all your Mechs the same? 2 (er)PPC and a Gauss? That is very creative, and likely to have that " overly complicated" system come crashing down on that as well.

If you did not get the memo, the system was put in place to affect "Alpha output". That is the goal. Not ones ability to effectively cause pain to the enemy. No reason the 2 and G can't get some love as well, after the PPC's get merged.

Do you even know what the heat mechanic will be after they merge the PPC's?

No you don't.

Even worst case scenario and they use the 7 heat mechanic from the PPC's, you are incurring 7 extra heat per alpha when you use 3 PPC's and a Gauss.

Who freaking cares about 7 extra heat for that build?

It's not like a brawler. Where you get into range and have to spam hard to kill your opponent before you die.

These builds are engaging from 800+M out, and picking their shots to core you. They can wait an extra couple seconds between pinpoint accurate shots to let that 7 heat dissipate.

It's dumb.

[BadWolf81]

My issue is that the rules are getting so complex and there is no in-game documents or flags to warn you what the numbers are or that the SSRM’s now target legs or any of the other changes that are added, I hope UI2.0 will add this because the rules are getting so complex I am sick of going to bookmarked forum posts for how LRM’s arc what effects lock on times and so on…

[Hythos]

The heat-penalty is an ALPHA limitation, not a restriction that limits BOATING.