545 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

BadWolf81, on 17 July 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

My issue is that the rules are getting so complex and there is no in-game documents or flags to warn you what the numbers are or that the SSRM’s now target legs or any of the other changes that are added, I hope UI2.0 will add this because the rules are getting so complex I am sick of going to bookmarked forum posts for how LRM’s arc what effects lock on times and so on…

Can you just imagine reading this stuff on each weapon.

PPC

Description: If you fire more than 2 of this weapon (Or it's partner the ER PPC, or it's partner the light PPC when it comes out), you will incur a penalty. But only if it's within .5 seconds of eachother. This is the calculation for the heat penalty [insert equation here].

So dumb.

[MaddMaxx]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Go find anyone that has EVER seen me in an Alpha build. And I'm complaining. Because I can use freaking common sense. And i'm not a rediculous white knighter.

0, nada, none of my builds are at all effected by these changes.

And I still consider them worthless and arbitrary.

There you go getting your panties in a bunch for nothing. If it does not "affect" you at all, then why do you even give a ****? Because your as much a QQ Queen as anyone else is a WhiteKnight.

[hammerreborn]

Theodor Kling, on 17 July 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

My complaining is not about not liking change ( since that was long overdue), but like others already mentioned the over complicated change. I don't get why they didn't simply play around with the heat values a bit. Simple numbers change, takes about a minute to do? Ok.. with double checking for typos by several people maybe 20 min?
Maybe the new stacking penalty would have been needed after that anyway, maybe not. But they never tried the simple approach, instead they came up with a new system they needed to code from scratch. A code that is obviously not very flexible as well, else the combining of PPC and ERPPC would have been in this patch.

That said: yes, at least in my elo ranges the new system seems to work mostly, bringing more diversity to the field. Although it is sometimes hard to judge if its because of the new heat system or the fun dmg buff to SRMs

Because that only effects people who can use one or two, due to tonnage limits. Like the spider. Who do you think a straight up heat nerf will effect more, the stalker who will go...hmm...NOPE, not going to fire this 40 point alpha because it's slightly hotter but still laughable because I have a heat cap of a million, or the spider who already runs hot with one and a medium laser.

[3rdworld]

MaddMaxx, on 17 July 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

If it does not "affect" you at all, then why do you even give a ****?

How I know you are stupid.

That is one of the dumbest things you could possibly use as an argument.

[MaddMaxx]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Do you even know what the heat mechanic will be after they merge the PPC's?

No you don't.

Even worst case scenario and they use the 7 heat mechanic from the PPC's, you are incurring 7 extra heat per alpha when you use 3 PPC's and a Gauss.

Who freaking cares about 7 extra heat for that build?

It's not like a brawler. Where you get into range and have to spam hard to kill your opponent before you die.

These builds are engaging from 800+M out, and picking their shots to core you. They can wait an extra couple seconds between pinpoint accurate shots to let that 7 heat dissipate.

It's dumb.

So you know what it will be then? Oh, you guessed? Again, your QQ'ing about something that apparently does not affect your game play style. Why all the noise then, to help your friends who do what you say...

Your just a WhiteNoiser dude. Way worse than any WhiteKnight could ever hope to be btw.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 17 July 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

3rdworld, on 17 July 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

How I know you are stupid.

That is one of the dumbest things you could possibly use as an argument.

Really. Complaining about something that has no effect on ones personal play style is actually relevant? What are you two twins or something? Just more WhiteNoise is all. I may have to turn down my Gamma setting soon. Well done dude.

[3rdworld]

MaddMaxx, on 17 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Really. Complaining about something that has no effect on ones personal play style is actually relevant? What are you two twins or something? Just more WhiteNoise is all. I may have to turn down my Gamma setting soon. Well done dude.

The fact that you don't see it is a stupid argument really speaks volumes.

BTW do you run AC/40 or 4 PPC mechs?

Twins? no, I don't care for Nicholas much and he has made posts to the same effect about me.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MaddMaxx, on 17 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Really. Complaining about something that has no effect on ones personal play style is actually relevant? What are you two twins or something? Just more WhiteNoise is all. I may have to turn down my Gamma setting soon. Well done dude.

It means I care about the game and I'm able to see beyond my own play style to hopefully create a situation where the game with grow and flourish.

Not be someone like you.

And I didn't guess what the mechanic would be, I used the available information and used a WORST CASE SCENARIO.

Right now ER PPC's incur 4.5 extra. PPC's incur 7 extra.

Based on what PGI said they will not be making the boating penalty worse when they merge them.

So worst case scenario from shooting 2 ER PPC's and a PPC or 2 PPC's and a ER PPC would be 7 heat.

Could be lower.

But even the worst case scenario is inconsequential to that kind of sniper.

So congratulations, you got rid of 4 PPC stalkers, and moved people to 3 PPC's and 1 Gauss.

3rdworld, on 17 July 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

The fact that you don't see it is a stupid argument really speaks volumes.

BTW do you run AC/40 or 4 PPC mechs?

Twins? no, I don't care for Nicholas much and he has made posts to the same effect about me.

Meh it's the boards, I don't really have major feelings either way for you. Unless you were hot and had 36 DD's anyway.

But damn Maxx, you need to take some debate classes or something.

[3rdworld]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

It means I care about the game and I'm able to see beyond my own play style to hopefully create a situation where the game with grow and flourish.

Not be someone like you.

And I didn't guess what the mechanic would be, I used the available information and used a WORST CASE SCENARIO.

Right now ER PPC's incur 4.5 extra. PPC's incur 7 extra.

Based on what PGI said they will not be making the boating penalty worse when they merge them.

So worst case scenario from shooting 2 ER PPC's and a PPC or 2 PPC's and a ER PPC would be 7 heat.

Actually the penalty applies to all weapons.

For my example shooting 4 PPCs on a 20DHS Mastered Stalker. That stalker has a Capacity of 76.8 (30 + 20EHS + 14DHS * 1.2Heat Containment)

Before yesterday I would get ~42% heat. (32/76.8)

Yesterday an alpha would create around 80% heat up to 85-89 on tourmaline. That could only happen if the formula is adding the additional 7 heat to all 4 PPCs. If it were only the 2 over the limit I would have been around 60%. But every time I fired them I ended close to 80.

Edited by 3rdworld, 17 July 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Howdy Doody]

I think it's a great step in the right direction, but like others it's too early to tell.

What I did experience in 3 hours of game play last night was...

1. I felt matches went longer.
2. I felt I lived longer with more spread damage. I felt that twisting made a bigger difference because once I got hit with one shot, I was almost always shot at again. I'm an XL junkie so this is huge for me.
3. I felt that playing smarter I was able to overheat folks in small skirmishes with a little patience and higher percentage shots.
4. I'm still scared of Big Mechs with 35 pt Alphas, and I like this. Big Mechs should be able to hit you hard. I feel 35 is a pretty good alpha currently.
5. I love the fact I take damage when I overheat. I'm thinking more about my heat then ever before. I now actually care and try to plan my shots a bit better.
6. I'm changing my builds to manage heat better.
7. I was in some Crazy good brawls.
8. It seems like I saw a LOT more total shots being fired. Battlefield seemed to have a lot more stray shots flying everywhere.
9. I actually spent more time looking at enemy mechs' load outs and trying to figure out when they would over heat if they spent time alphaing.
10. A lot of mediums using SRMs. Makes the battlefield look fantastic.

Now a lot of this I'm sure is related to the fact the entire community doesn't fully understand the changes. And I would LOVE to try a convergence system that is discussed on the forums. But for now I feel this is the best the game has been in a while.

On a sad note, I don't think I saw a single pulse laser fired. That's just a damn shame. Crazy cool weapon.

[Rippthrough]

Yeah, the best it has been for a while is because of the SRM buff. Nothing else.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

El Bandito, on 16 July 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

No. It is overly complicated and can be easily circumvented by smarter players.

This is a wise man. Listen to the wise man.

[Deathlike]

Guys... you need to hear me out on this.

I think the poll isn't wrong... but the implications are bad.

PGI is literally catering to the LCD... and from the results of the poll, it's kinda working.

The thing is, the elite player knows exactly how to expose this system for what it is... a poor bandaid for something that really needs addressing.

For the casual player, it has "alleviated" their fears... you will have to change your loadout somewhat (for those that don't quite understand the system, there's more "diverse loadouts"). You might have to even stagger your shot (no "easy mode" AC40 Jagers.... except they chain fire instead). The thing is, it does address "some" of the issues that it intends to resolve, but it leaves the OP options to the elite players.

So, if you were to see more goons with the good loadouts.. they will still more often than not steamroll... because the meta has changed, but nothing to affect the "ultimate loadouts".

It's kinda like the JJ nerf... those who truly know how to take advantage of it will benefit. Those w/o skill will die. It's that simple.

All PGI has done is "alter" the skill level and the not-so-high 35 damage (PPC+Gauss) alpha meta... and the thing is allows "everyone" outside of the grumpy naysayers about the current system to "embrace" a very easily exploitable system.

It's a sad win-win of fail on this end, and I don't think the masses will realize that the elites are what they are... they can still roflstomp the PGI 8-mans easily with this change, and it will continue to dominate higher level play.

Yes, the meta has changed... but the true meta has not. Working as intended™.

[Zerberus]

blinkin, on 16 July 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

AC20 is just slightly larger than a 0.75 cal.

Not necessarily. While some models have a 100 caliber bore (25mm /1 Inch), they go up to almost the equivalent of 800 caliber (203mm /8 Inches), depending on manufacturer. Though at that size, bore is not usually measured in caliber anymore but in mm and barrel length in measured in caliber as a relative measurement.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/AC/20
http://en.wikipedia....%28artillery%29

Edited by Zerberus, 17 July 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

It means I care about the game and I'm able to see beyond my own play style to hopefully create a situation where the game with grow and flourish.

Not be someone like you.

And I didn't guess what the mechanic would be, I used the available information and used a WORST CASE SCENARIO.

Right now ER PPC's incur 4.5 extra. PPC's incur 7 extra.

Based on what PGI said they will not be making the boating penalty worse when they merge them.

So worst case scenario from shooting 2 ER PPC's and a PPC or 2 PPC's and a ER PPC would be 7 heat.

Could be lower.

But even the worst case scenario is inconsequential to that kind of sniper.

So congratulations, you got rid of 4 PPC stalkers, and moved people to 3 PPC's and 1 Gauss.

Meh it's the boards, I don't really have major feelings either way for you. Unless you were hot and had 36 DD's anyway.

But damn Maxx, you need to take some debate classes or something.

Well ok then. If I do that will you stop making **** up? We will call it even.

[PhoenixFire55]

Boating has always been a part of BattleTech. Fix convergence and you fix boats. Do stupid arbitrary heat penalties and you break the game, its as simple as that.

[MaddMaxx]

3rdworld, on 17 July 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Actually the penalty applies to all weapons.

For my example shooting 4 PPCs on a 20DHS Mastered Stalker. That stalker has a Capacity of 76.8 (30 + 20EHS + 14DHS * 1.2Heat Containment)

Before yesterday I would get ~42% heat. (32/76.8)

Yesterday an alpha would create around 80% heat up to 85-89 on tourmaline. That could only happen if the formula is adding the additional 7 heat to all 4 PPCs. If it were only the 2 over the limit I would have been around 60%. But every time I fired them I ended close to 80.

So you believe that they added a "48 point" heat penalty to the 2 AC20 build then?

[3rdworld]

MaddMaxx, on 17 July 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

So you believe that they added a "48 point" heat penalty to the 2 AC20 build then?

Don't know, don't run one.

All i know is for it to create that much more heat on my mech, it was much more than 14.

Edited by 3rdworld, 17 July 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

The goal, getting more people to chain-fire, is good, but the method chosen is poorly.

The patch notes on the feature were not even completely understandeable, and it took people trying it in game to figure out what it probably meant. And these are people that know how heat "used" to behave. I have no idea how you want to communicate this to new players.

And then the system affects not really all the weapons it should, and affects weapons it should not.

1) Alpha Strikes with SRMs are not precise. They don't get the type of pinpoint precision PPCs or Ballistics get in MW:O.
2) Lasers are not really that precise either, since you have to burn on target for 0.5+ seconds to deal your damage, you're likely to spread damage.
3) Gauss Rifles are (despite what the weapon.xml says) doesn't appear to be affected but Dual Gauss mechs can also provide alpha-boats, and the lore even contains triple+ Gauss mechs. Sure, they could add a heat penalty, but this feels completely nonsensical, since Gauss is supposed to be a very low-heat weapon.

It still gives no good reason not to boat, actually, since not boating still comes with old drawbacks:
- Weapons have different and incompatible recycle rates, so you can't build a real firing rotation.
- Weapons have different projectile speeds and thus different lead times, mixing weapons makes your job as gunner harder as you need to shift gears to use differently behaving weapons.

The advantage of convergence+alpha is lessened for those "max-alpha" builds, but you still get it for below, and it's still vastly easier to chain-fire 4 PPCs then to chain fire 2 Large Pulse Lasers and 2 AC/5. Different recycle rates, different projectile behaviour.

[jakucha]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 July 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Boating has always been a part of BattleTech. Fix convergence and you fix boats. Do stupid arbitrary heat penalties and you break the game, its as simple as that.

Pretty much every new system suggestion is "arbitrary". Please stop using that word.

Edited by jakucha, 17 July 2013 - 09:05 AM.