11 replies to this topic

[Edwyndham]

( Other current threads on this problem:
http://mwomercs.com/...ybe-ac5s-video/
http://mwomercs.com/...2-heat-penalty/ )


tl;dr: group firing AC2s together in one big group has no observable penalties. Stagger firing them within .25s of each other has erratic heat buildup.

Note: I have sent in a support ticket, just posting here too. Would like to know if others have observed this as well?

Okay, as of this last patch I've noticed that my 'dakka' 4x AC2 Jager has been overheating a LOT faster than normal. At first I thought it was another instance of PGI slipping in patch changes and not telling us -- I figured AC2s now had a heat index multiplier like PPCs -- but upon further inspection (just shooting AC2s for about an hour in testing grounds) I've noticed that it's a really, really quirky bug.

This is a comparison between normal group firing (0.5s recycle rate) and 'stagger' firing, i.e. firing two different groups 0.25s apart. I have not tested how it works with 'machine-gun AC2' macros for 6x AC2 or whatever, and currently I do not intend to do so.

For my test I took my typical 4x AC2 jager. I set up two firing groups of 2x AC2 each, and a third group with all 4 together. I conducted the following firing tests on various maps and the behavior of heat buildup was consistent no matter how many times I did it.

Test one: Firing all 4 AC2 together. Heat buildup is consistent. On Tourmaline, for example, firing all 4 AC2s generates ~7% heat per salvo, and I observed that each salvo was doing just that. On Tourmaline, overheat in about 8 seconds.

Test two: Stagger fire with 2 groups of 2. Even just looking at heat buildup at a glance, it seems to jump exponentially and then taper off back to normal levels. On Tourmaline, a single salvo of 2 AC2 generates ~3% heat for me. When stagger firing, the 6th such salvo generates upwards of 20% heat by itself. Subsequent salvos generate normal heat. On Tourmaline, overheat in about 6 seconds.

Test three: Stagger fire the 2 groups of 2. After the observable significant jump in heat, stop firing, and then begin stagger firing again. The jump in heat happens again: the 6th salvo, a 2x AC2 generates about 20% heat! On Tourmaline, overheat in less than 4 seconds.

Test four: Group fire of 2 AC2 vs stagger fire of 2 groups of 1 AC2 each. Even with half the number of AC2s in action, there is an exponential jump in heat when stagger firing. When group-firing the 2x AC2 together, on Tourmaline, it took me over 10s to reach 50% heat. When stagger firing, I got there in half the time.


In closing, the latest patch notes don't even mention AC2s in the new heat nerf mechanics. This problem I've seen is pretty consistent, though, and has significantly affected one of my favorite builds in the game for seemingly no reason.

Yes, I can theoretically just group fire them all together and deal with it, and until it's fixed I guess I have to; but stagger firing has been great for both frightening an enemy (same damage but more dakka and rattling) and for tracing a stream of fire at more extreme ranges. Both have been penalized by this bug.

Has anyone else noticed these issues? And yes, I've sent in a support ticket already, so hopefully it gets some notice over at PGI.

Edited by zwanglos, 17 July 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[Draco Harkins]

Same problem during 8x8 drops.

[JackAttack5]

I've experienced the same thing and sent in my support ticket. It can happen even with two or thee AC2s if they are fired out of sync with eachother (either via macro or weapon groupings). These are the threads already on it, with both pictures and videos as evidence. Hopefully it gets a hotfix.

http://mwomercs.com/...ybe-ac5s-video/
http://mwomercs.com/...2-heat-penalty/

[Nebelfeuer]

Ermm, have you considered that firing in an 0.25 sec intervall means that you stack the weapons and they naturaly will be counted as a single "Alpha" violating the 0.5 sec rule after having fired 4 shots? It´s actually quite simple. as long as you fire weapons of the same kind closer than 0.5 sec they count as one "alphastrike".
The fix is simple do not try to highten your firingspeed by violating the 0.5 sec rule and you will have no problems.
The way the system works is actually good since it does prevent getting advantages by macroing.

[Bludhawk]

Nebelfeuer, on 17 July 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Ermm, have you considered that firing in an 0.25 sec intervall means that you stack the weapons and they naturaly will be counted as a single "Alpha" violating the 0.5 sec rule after having fired 4 shots? It´s actually quite simple. as long as you fire weapons of the same kind closer than 0.5 sec they count as one "alphastrike".
The fix is simple do not try to highten your firingspeed by violating the 0.5 sec rule and you will have no problems.
The way the system works is actually good since it does prevent getting advantages by macroing.

I believe you missed the important part of the post. An ALPHA of all 4 AC/2's fired continuously is generating a constant amount of heat that is NOT affected by the "Max Alpha". However, smaller groups of AC/2's (Even 1 followed by another as mentioned by Jackattack) are causing an even higher growth. In no way is that "working as intended".

Edited by Bludhawk, 17 July 2013 - 05:51 AM.

[Deathlike]

The heat buildup has a lot to do with how PGI is "timing" the shots between the weapons. Even if you follow the legal AC2 boat heating requirement (4 is the limit), if you fire the weapon every < .5 seconds, the game continues to count the firing of shots.. as if there were 5 or more ACs boated. It's about the timing... which causes PGI's system to overheat an AC2 boat.

[Edwyndham]

JackAttack5, on 17 July 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

I've experienced the same thing and sent in my support ticket. It can happen even with two or thee AC2s if they are fired out of sync with eachother (either via macro or weapon groupings). These are the threads already on it, with both pictures and videos as evidence. Hopefully it gets a hotfix.

http://mwomercs.com/...ybe-ac5s-video/
http://mwomercs.com/...2-heat-penalty/

Thanks for the info, edited OP to include the links.

Nebelfeuer, on 17 July 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Ermm, have you considered that firing in an 0.25 sec intervall means that you stack the weapons and they naturaly will be counted as a single "Alpha" violating the 0.5 sec rule after having fired 4 shots? It´s actually quite simple. as long as you fire weapons of the same kind closer than 0.5 sec they count as one "alphastrike".
The fix is simple do not try to highten your firingspeed by violating the 0.5 sec rule and you will have no problems.
The way the system works is actually good since it does prevent getting advantages by macroing.

- According to the patch notes, AC2s were not included in the recent heat tweaks. There shouldn't be a 0.5 second rule at all with regards to AC2s.
- As Bludhawk pointed out, I can 'alpha' 4x AC2 all day long and not incur heat penalties.
- As observed, the heat buildup is erratic and doesn't follow the model of the heat penalty system.
- I'm not using macros. I'm not using macros. I'm not using macros. Firing group one on the LMB, firing group two on the RMB, press one and then the other 0.25 seconds apart.

[Deathlike]

zwanglos, on 17 July 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

- According to the patch notes, AC2s were not included in the recent heat tweaks. There shouldn't be a 0.5 second rule at all with regards to AC2s.

Even though it's not listed, it IS in the game data, which can confirm the behavior.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

AC2s are limited to 3, with a "heat penalty" of 1.

[Allied]

Deathlike, on 17 July 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

The heat buildup has a lot to do with how PGI is "timing" the shots between the weapons. Even if you follow the legal AC2 boat heating requirement (4 is the limit), if you fire the weapon every < .5 seconds, the game continues to count the firing of shots.. as if there were 5 or more ACs boated. It's about the timing... which causes PGI's system to overheat an AC2 boat.

Deathlike's explaination seems the most likely to me. The problem with firing as two groups is the alpha timer never gets a reset. Causing the new mechanic to think that this chain of AC2 fire is all in the same "Max Alpha". Kind of silly, and should probably be addressed. They would need a new mechanic for resetting that timer though.

Zwanglos brings up a good point, only the AC/20 is mentioned in the patch:
http://mwomercs.com/...23-16-jul-2013/

But obviously the AC/2 is being affected. Was this on purpose? Why was it's max alpha + penalty multiplier not released in the notes?

I personally like this new mechanism, it might just be a bandaid fix but it brings back brawling which I love. The problem is I think that this concept will be VERY hard for new players to pickup on. Unless they read all the patch notes they will not know they shouldn't be firing 5 large lasers at once. Heck, I will need to bring up the patch notes while making mechs to remember the max alphas on various weapons. If this is going to be the fix it needs to be more obvious to the user about the penalties.

Edited by Allied, 17 July 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[theta123]

Since i am a huge user of the AC2....Quad AC2 JMD S, Dual AC2 AC5 JMD DD and Firebrand with Dual AC2 and LL....

This better be fixed.


With my 4XAC2 i have each AC2 in one weapon group. Left mouse, right mouse, spacebar and Shift....Well it overheats like CRAZY

[Newclay]

Found out about this bug in my Blackjack (Dual AC/2s, 4 Med Lasers) and my Jagermech (Dual AC/2s, Dual AC/5s, 2 Med Lasers). Was in training grounds and it seems when staggering the AC/2s random heat spikes occur, and they ain't small ether. I've seen shots generate a ridicules amount of heat such as: I'm sitting at 29% the next shot jumps me up to 43% in my Blackjack. Other times its not as drastic. Instead of generating around 1.5% heat it will generate 5% -14% on the gauge (Numbers taken from River City test but the bug continues through each map).

[Randy Butternubs]

I've noticed this too- the first time playing my 4 AC/2 JM6-DD after the patch I could alpha all day but if I fired the same amount of rounds staggered at .25sec intervals in groups of two I was hit with a massive and nonsensical heat penalty.

Edited by Randy Butternubs, 19 July 2013 - 09:27 PM.