76 replies to this topic

[xRatas]

mania3c, on 17 July 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

but how?? how you can balance something so strong as massive alpha with quirks? I can't really think about anything which could bring these 4-6 PPC alphas into line without breaking whole mech chassis. if you will balance these mechs around these alphas, they will be nerfed to hell when someone will try more balanced build.. or maybe I just don't see what you want to say..

There is no stock loadout with 6PPCs. 4 is max I can remember, there are some of those though. And PPC should get nerf anyway, like I said before, weapons should still be balanced of course.

Also, quirks affect only single variant of the chassis, if it is a boat variant, it could have several bad things to it. You'd just build your balanced loadout from some other variant or chassis, shouldn't be that hard?

Quirks could include torso twist range/speed, mech turning speed, only allow stock armor, low heat maximum, stuff like that. I bet you could easily come up with even better ones with slight imagination.

Edited by xRatas, 17 July 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[AnarchyBurger]

zazz0000, on 16 July 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Ok... 3 PPC's get a heat penalty. Cool.

2 PPC's, 2 LL's, AC-20, LRM-20, SRM-6 alpha strike (silly, but possible) results in regular weapon heat production.

Second scenario. 2 PPC's fired. 2 more PPC's fired in .475 seconds. Full heat penalty.
2 PPC's fired. 2 more PPC's fired in .525 second. No problem.

I'm sure there are more scenarios that make even less sense than those above.
The current heat thing is easily circumvented by even a small amount of skill. One instant shot or two shots half a second apart? Still cores enemies quite well.

This is the king of bandaid fixes if I've seen one. One man's purchase of the overlord phoenix package paid handsomely for the time involved in implementing this debauch.

Keep it for now, but scrap it when underlying issues are solved! (Just as you claim that SRM damage should be lowered when hit detection is fixed)

Its funny I just did an overtime shift which was going to pay for the phoenix pack, until now. Seriously most other changes I can or would have been on board with. Even the SSRMs (as long as they increase the damage). But the heat change just seems.... Bad. Like a poorly implemented and even more poorly thought out decision. Like someone just threw in the balancing towel and said "F it lets just nerf all the mechanics, dur dur dur". Its kinda sad, because I was looking forward to that pack, but I refuse to put any money into a game that just seems to be heading down such a poor road. Seriously reminds me of WoW balancing... Which is not a compliement.

[Rippthrough]

AnarchyBurger, on 18 July 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

Its funny I just did an overtime shift which was going to pay for the phoenix pack, until now.

I've spent the money I had waiting for it on car parts already, screw 'em.

[Rippthrough]

Donnie Silveray, on 17 July 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

Recatagorizing each weapon into a specific group,
Modifying every chassis variant to the new system.
Another layer of something to keep in mind.
Effectively scrapping the vast majority of builds currently out there.
Another thing to keep balance checks on.

I see this 'solution' as taking possibly 2-3 months to implement at best as well as being a general pain in the arse. It doesn't really compare to slapping down several mathematical formulas to affect weapons themselves. This would have been a good solution had they had it in mind when starting out, but right now I see it as too much a pain to fix than it is worth it. Not unless they overhaul the system.

You know what else would have been a good solution when starting out?
Lowering the heat cap and bumping DHS back to 2.0 dissipation, which the forums screamed about for months, got ignored on (sound familiar?) and spouted some **** about lights coring everything (even though it turns out they had 2.0 DHS already anyway - usual patch/balance issue we've had for about a year, most of PGI don't know how to play their own game).

If you don't have the massive heatcap, you can't alpha 4-5-6 ppcs. You can chainfire them effectively enough to be worth carrying over 3ppcs though, because of the dissipation rates.
This whole issue, like a few others, simply stems from the Devs burying their heads in the sand over the problems raised on the forums at the time with the heat system, in which dozens of people went through the math for them with the conclusion that this, amongst others, would be an issue, and went and did their own thing anyway.
And then spent months trying to rebalance their weapons due to it, as we all went around in circles from weapon-of-the-patchaggedon.

The sad thing is now, when the predicted problem is here slapping them in the face, they can't do anything about it without creating masses and masses of rebalancing work, so they've slapped a cap on with some random numbers they pulled out of the air and, as per their usual modus operandia , it doesn't work and just nerfs build variety.

Couple of guys I play with have just come back after a few months away, good, experienced players, and their thoughts on the heat cap system as they tried to understand what was going on and why their mechs weren't working will probably get me banned. Unintuitive, random ******** is about the best I can post.
So, if it's bad enough to want to drive away experience players who know what they're doing. What is it doing to the new guys?

Edited by Rippthrough, 18 July 2013 - 02:23 AM.

[Donnie Silveray]

Your bashing of the devs is hardly going to change their mind .

I believe the problem in studio is similar to what is going through with EVE Online at the moment. The game had piled on so many features on top of one another without a truly solid plan on linking them intuitively that what came out after all these years is an absolute mess of ship classes, roles, and misguided training. Apparently this is a big enough of a problem that it is taking CCP years to unfold the mess and rebalance all the ships according to their new system.

To apply this to PGI, basically they have the slight issue of wanting to keep what they made in place. No harm in that, it's normal behavior and happens all the time to game devs. I'm hoping that if they can get out of the release crunch that they'll take a step back and look over the whole system and give it an overhaul. They do plan on overhauling the ingame UI after release, what's to stop them from overhauling other things?

[Yankee77]

zazz0000, on 16 July 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Ok... 3 PPC's get a heat penalty. Cool.

2 PPC's, 2 LL's, AC-20, LRM-20, SRM-6 alpha strike (silly, but possible) results in regular weapon heat production.

Second scenario. 2 PPC's fired. 2 more PPC's fired in .475 seconds. Full heat penalty.
2 PPC's fired. 2 more PPC's fired in .525 second. No problem.

I'm sure there are more scenarios that make even less sense than those above.
The current heat thing is easily circumvented by even a small amount of skill. One instant shot or two shots half a second apart? Still cores enemies quite well.

This is the king of bandaid fixes if I've seen one. One man's purchase of the overlord phoenix package paid handsomely for the time involved in implementing this debauch.

Keep it for now, but scrap it when underlying issues are solved! (Just as you claim that SRM damage should be lowered when hit detection is fixed)

The idea is to encourage weapon loadout diversity and cut down on pinpoint high alpha attacks. That's the goal, and it accomplishes that very well.

You say that the system is "circumvented" with a small amount of skill. What makes you think you are circumventing anything?

The very point of the ystem is to force you to cut down on those pinpoint high alpha attacks. If you split your 4 PPCs into two groups fired .5 second apart, you are doing exactly what they were hoping you would. Ditto if you mix in some LLs and SRMs to avoid the penalty. That's precisely what they were going for.

And it's working. Build diversity is through the roof since the patch, as is brawling.

Now if you're looking at it from a "realism" POV, you're right, it's pretty weird and "unrealistic" (it'll take quite some fluff gymnastics to explain it *grin*), but mechanically it is accomplishing precisely what they wanted.

And most importantly, this system gives the devs a powerful new set of dials to tinker around with to preserve game balance. On top of the existing weapon stats, they can now change the weapon limits and the heat penalty, AND play around with the groupings as well. That's huge, and will allow the devs to fiddle with game balance without wasting coding ressources. That's a good thing.

I for one am very happy with this change. It may look weird on paper, but the gameplay is certainly more enjoyable for it.

[Ningyo]

Donnie Silveray, on 17 July 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

The heat scale may be arbitrary but it is very simple in execution by slapping a single mathematical equation in. Try handling that with Convergence. It's not perfect, and I agree it IS darn right silly and probably counter-intuitive when it comes to those not informed. PGI will HAVE TO IMPLEMENT UI to explain this in the Mech Lab. Preferably in very clear language when UI2.0 comes out. That or overhauling the base heat system and implement the heat scale universally via an exponential curve to remove that sense of arbitrary number selections.

Please provide this clear simple equation but before you do let me give some real in game heat increases so you can figure it out.

1 PPC = 8 heat
2 PPC = 16 heat
3 PPC = 32 heat (additional 8)
4 PPC = 54 heat (additional 14)

1 ERPPC = 11
2 ERPPC = 22
3 ERPPC = 40 (additional 7)
4 ERPPC = 62 (additional 11)

1 LRM 15 = 5
2 LRM 15 = 10
3 LRM 15 = 16.5 (additional 1.5)
4 LRM 15 = 24.5 (additional 3)


also from another player though cannot guarantee their accuracy
oh and not sure how they calculated their extra heat, in my calculations on their data it would be
7 ML = 4 extra, 8 ML = another 4 extra, 9 ML = another 8 extra

Aoreias, on 16 July 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

5 MLAS - 20 heat
6 MLAS - 24 heat
7 MLAS - 32 heat (4 extra)
8 MLAS - 40 heat (18 extra)
9 MLAS - 52 heat (16 extra)

1 AC20 - 6 heat
2 AC20 - 24 heat (12 extra)

PS: and at post above this, build diversity and increase of brawling is a direct effect of people testing SRMs and finding they are now no longer utterly horrible but actually semi usable. It has almost nothing to do ith the heatscale since the heatscale only actually has major affects on 5 builds
5-6 PPC (4 switches to 2 ER its most common variant anyway)
AC/40 (most switched to 2 gauss or 1 AC/20, 1 Gauss. See some 1 AC/20, 2 PPC as well)
8-9m ML hunchback/BJ (these might need to switch to a couple LL or MPL no huge deal)
4+ LL (these went from fairly bad to omg trash and have no simple method to make work like before)
6 SRM6 splatcat (now its 3 SRM6, 3 SRM4 splatcat)

Edited by Ningyo, 18 July 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 July 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

An Awesome cannot fire 3 PPCs(30 point Alpha) without a heat penalty

an Atlas-D-DC CAN fire, a Gauss, 2 Large lasers, and 3 SRM6 (69 point Alpha) with no heat penalty...

Yeah... That makes sense

If you did not see that lumbering beast coming your way, ECM or otherwise think Seismic), or get word from a Team mate that did and politely let you know, then what the hell are you doing standing in front of it @270m? If you have a death wish, then you picked wisely, otherwise one hopes you can survive a Gauss (15) + 2 LL (18) = 33, shot before finding more friendly cover. Not like it will chase you down. lol

P.S. That assumes you don't get a Gauss round notifier message before having to deal with the 33 pointer and or the full BIG BANG!

[Thunder Lips Express]

i'm sure there could be a better way to address the alpha strike pinpoint damage, but in the mean time i like this, sure i have an ac40 cat, but it doesn't bother me that it over heats now, i don't play it often regardless. the fact that some of you get so worked up over things like this is rather sad. there are important things in life, and then there are video games. now i love mechwarrior more then any other game even with the warts, but i'm not going to get ********* if and when they prevent the mass majority of the community from poptarting alpha striking ppcs.
like was this not what ppl were complaining about? and now that you don't see it anymore ppl complain about the fixes they made....**** for just a little while plz and enjoy the game of mech on mech action there is still lots of fun to be had.

[MaddMaxx]

Rippthrough, on 18 July 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

snip (useless whitenoise)

So, if it's bad enough to want to drive away experience players who know what they're doing. What is it doing to the new guys?

Perhaps a Poll asking how many of those "experienced" players are going to actually "leave" versus create just more "whitenoise" because of this currently "incomplete" Heat Penalty?

Remember that they never bailed when the SRM/LRM got butchered, but the "whitenoise" they generated would have powered an Atlas ffs and was more than deafening.

Either that, or simply speak for yourself.

[Nexus Omega]

MisterFiveSeven, on 17 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Doing damage to a location other than where you hit is the worst idea ever.

OH ****, what if Paul reads this!?

Too much damage, get it right,

worst than X amount of weapons super heats your mech?

to a new player which is more arbitary?

I could get behind the heat system if it had been implemented differently, say each weapon had a power draw stat, and drawing to much power generates excess heat, (overload) we could add a little power gauge to the hud people could SEE.

I have a worse idea how about we roll dices and see where we hit mechs?

[MisterFiveSeven]

Nexus Omega, on 18 July 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Too much damage, get it right,

Still pants on head ********, sorry.

But I could definitely get behind any rational system (like a power draw mechanic). Repost from another thread:

I prefer the mechanic approach, I just wish they had picked one that wasn't so senseless, and if we're honest, intellectually offensive. Give me a reason, any reason, that by whatever space magic makes stompy robots go that this mechanic makes sense. Because if you don't, this will remain Call of Duty played in molasses.

Nexus Omega, on 18 July 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

I have a worse idea how about we roll dices and see where we hit mechs?

Lol that mechanic is the only reason we're posting on this forum.

Must have worked out pretty well...

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 18 July 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[Rippthrough]

MaddMaxx, on 18 July 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Perhaps a Poll asking how many of those "experienced" players are going to actually "leave" versus create just more "whitenoise" because of this currently "incomplete" Heat Penalty?

Remember that they never bailed when the SRM/LRM got butchered, but the "whitenoise" they generated would have powered an Atlas ffs and was more than deafening.

Either that, or simply speak for yourself.

This would be the experienced players who just had a couple of months sabatical you mean? Or is not playing for a few months not classed as leaving?
I don't see anyone spending money when they're not playing.

[Joseph Mallan]

MaddMaxx, on 18 July 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

If you did not see that lumbering beast coming your way, ECM or otherwise think Seismic), or get word from a Team mate that did and politely let you know, then what the hell are you doing standing in front of it @270m? If you have a death wish, then you picked wisely, otherwise one hopes you can survive a Gauss (15) + 2 LL (18) = 33, shot before finding more friendly cover. Not like it will chase you down. lol

P.S. That assumes you don't get a Gauss round notifier message before having to deal with the 33 pointer and or the full BIG BANG!

You don't use cover much? My Mech does fine brawling. I have killed me quite a few 6 PPC Stalkers I have died to them too. Not a single complaint ever logged by me. This is the dumbest "Fix" ever. 2 AC20 now can't be fired in an alpha cause some spineless dolts can't accept they can be killed. Like I said I can Alpha my builds fairly, but certain weapons are being penalized cause folks just cannot accept that they died.

Why 2 AC20 and not 2 AC10? Why LRM 15s and not the rest? It's arbitrary and total BS.

Nexus Omega, on 18 July 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Too much damage, get it right,

An AC20 and 2 PPCs do as much damage but no Heat penalty.

[keith]

Rippthrough, on 18 July 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

This would be the experienced players who just had a couple of months sabatical you mean? Or is not playing for a few months not classed as leaving?
I don't see anyone spending money when they're not playing.

lets not forgot most experience ppl will drop money on any chassis(hero) they feel will give them an advantage. as long as they are playing. this poor balancing act is making most ppl who don't care about spending money leave.

[Nexus Omega]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

An AC20 and 2 PPCs do as much damage but no Heat penalty.

The suggestion I made would spread that extra 10 damage over 30 and spread it out, reducing the pin point amount.
And yes the current heat implementation doesn't take the Combo you suggested into account.

MisterFiveSeven, on 18 July 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

But I could definitely get behind any rational system (like a power draw mechanic)

I second that motion!
All in Favour?

Edited by Nexus Omega, 18 July 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nexus Omega, on 18 July 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

The suggestion I made would spread that extra 10 damage over 30 and spread it out, reducing the pin point amount.
And yes the current heat implementation doesn't take the Combo you suggested into account.

I am in favor of spreading out the damage over nerfing heat. All weapon heat should be restored to TT levels. If that isn't enough I can accept the over heat internal damage Buff, an then after everything else failed to stop the PPC boating, then stick us with a heat nerf. But slapping arbitrary numbers on just to wreck a build, is just a BS move.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 July 2013 - 06:39 PM.