59 replies to this topic

[Crimson Fenris]

I wonder if this "issue" of instant-convergence weapons is simply a matter of flexibility in the Cry Engine 3 itself :

Remember that engine was initially developped for FPS gaming, where are pin-point weapons, and accuracy penalties as well.
But the fact is, in all those FPS games, there was no system of "multiple aim" : only one aim, for one bullet at a time, modified only by accuracy (usually for jumping or running) wich will spread the bullets off target.

I strongly presume, as hinted by the convergence upgrade in the pilot skills tree that had never been working from day one, there is a problem wich require such serious coding upgrades in the core engine to be functional.

Actually, in MWO, we can only see all our shots going into the same point, with the exception of arm-mounted weapons that can fire with another aimpoint.

Basically, to set the intended working convergence, it will require one aimpoint by weapon, varying by the distance aimed, in realtime.
Two aimpoints, one mobile and other fixed, were IMO already a big deal to code properly...

So, if PGI dont want to "fix" convergence, maybe its because the required amount of work currently overwhelm their programming abilities ?
Maybe their knowledge about the CryEngine is not high enough, or even the engine itself doesnt allow those modifications ?

You thoughts ?

[Syllogy]

It doesn't have nearly the major impact that people think it does. In my opinion, they are using it as a crutch. Someone kills them with a high alpha, so it must be convergence and not the fact that they were standing still in the open.

I would love to see the patch notes that said that convergence was changed. If it was never changed, then it was never a problem. People started grasping at straws to justify their failures.

Edited by Syllogy, 17 July 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[DocBach]

Syllogy, on 17 July 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

It doesn't have nearly the major impact that people think it does. In my opinion, they are using it as a crutch. Someone kills them with a high alpha, so it must be convergence and not the fact that they were standing still in the open.

can you teach me to be a better mechwarrior like you? I don't understand concepts like cover and concealment so I stand still trying to put my reticle over the target but my trackpad makes it hard to aim.

[hammerreborn]

Syllogy, on 17 July 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

It doesn't have nearly the major impact that people think it does. In my opinion, they are using it as a crutch. Someone kills them with a high alpha, so it must be convergence and not the fact that they were standing still in the open.

This, it won't change anything major.  The meta will still be PPCs + guass, except concentrated even more on the mechs with the most hardpoints in each section.

If both arms converge to the same place the stalker (wow no one ever uses that now) will be the top mech, or if each individual part the heavy metal (again, surprise surprise never see any highlanders either) with the 3 ppcs in the arm.


Meanwhile fast mechs with spread loadouts will fire and hit everything, basically making them unable to kill an atlas like they were using 1.5 SRMs as every weapon.

Edited by hammerreborn, 17 July 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[DocBach]

PPC's and gauss are suppose to be fearsome weapons - the kings of their weapon types, in fact. Even in cannon most heavy and assault 'Mechs use multiples of them as their main weapon systems.

Shooting them all in one location at once is a problem, however.

Edited by DocBach, 17 July 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[3rdworld]

Syllogy, on 17 July 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

It doesn't have nearly the major impact that people think it does. In my opinion, they are using it as a crutch. Someone kills them with a high alpha, so it must be convergence and not the fact that they were standing still in the open.

I would love to see the patch notes that said that convergence was changed. If it was never changed, then it was never a problem. People started grasping at straws to justify their failures.

Agreed.

Or facing me the entire time, and wondering how I can consistently hit the same location.

Torso twist people. It isn't rocket science.

[DocBach]

3rdworld, on 17 July 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Torso twist people. It isn't rocket science.

what if the class of 'Mech I'm driving has a silly engine cap limit so I move very slowly and easy to track, and my armor levels even maxed are much lower than the assaults shooting massive alpha strikes can take out an entire location with each hit every time I torso twist to spread the damage?

[Donnie Silveray]

This is a topic I really wonder if people can grasp properly, honestly. Aside from the evident difficulties of implementing such a thing which would likely require a core adjustment to the engine itself at worst, would it really make a difference? Some mechs are made specifically to be able to provide such a field of fire, and don't tell me that mechs with arms shouldn't be able to traverse properly.

[Otto Cannon]

I believe the official reason for not addressing convergence is hit detection. The game can barely cope at the moment, so more points of impact (like with srms which are the buggiest weapon now) would be too much to handle.

[Tennex]

*Vergence*

[hammerreborn]

DocBach, on 17 July 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

PPC's and gauss are suppose to be fearsome weapons - the kings of their weapon types, in fact. Even in cannon most heavy and assault 'Mechs use multiples of them as their main weapon systems.

Shooting them all in one location at once is a problem, however.

Convergence doesn't really fix the former, and does nothing for the latter.

I say it doesn't fix the former because even your suggestion still has all the weapons in each arm hitting the same point, so Heavy Metals become the new meta with 3 PPC arms. For those who don't want to be wallet warriors, stalkers and Jagers still have 20 point alphas for each section (or you know, the relatively same alphas imposed by the heat scale). Furthermore, it also makes LRMs more prominent because those track the CT so heavily already.

Convergence also makes it impossible for lights to scout, as their TAG will be impossible to truely track/aim as all of the proposed methods would constantly be changing it's convergence point making it a giant zig zag as they move around.


And as I said, does nothing to the "FIRE ALL ZE MISSILES" that is the issue.

Heat scale attempts (not completely successful yet) to address both. Can't fire as many weapons into the same location at the same time without massive penalties = reduced pinpoint damage and alpha size.

EDIT:

Furthermore, every proposed convergence suggestion has been a buff to PPCs. Aside from the straight up "need more alpha" that is forced by having convergence, you also get have the issue with convergence time in general. Oh you mean I have to wait a few seconds to get the maximum alpha? Well, good thing that matches perfectly with PPCs/guasses longer cooldown.

Edited by hammerreborn, 17 July 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[SmoothCriminal]

I swear Paul said that a convergence fix would be very tricky to implement.

Much prefer scrapping this heat alpha scale BS and just bumping up the heat on PPCs...

[hammerreborn]

SmoothCriminal, on 17 July 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

I swear Paul said that a convergence fix would be very tricky to implement.

Much prefer scrapping this heat alpha scale BS and just bumping up the heat on PPCs...

Ask the devs 42.

And why not both? (they are doing both fyi).

[MustrumRidcully]

The short answer is: No.

PGI basically said itself that tweaking convergence is difficult and creates a lot of problems, especially once the usual lag gets involved.

But even if that wasn't the case, I find it difficult to come with an UI concept that actually communicates the convergence state well. And even if that was in place, that still gives every reason to alpha strike - you just have to wait a bit until the convergence has reached acceptable levels.

I nowadays prefer enforcing chain-fire. Not the way PGI is doing it, though. The idea is, every weapon has, besides its normal cooldown, also a global cooldown that is triggered whenever another weapon is fired. This cooldown depends on the weapon we're talking about - lasers don't need a long cooldown, something like the AC/20 might need a 0.5 second cooldown.

So you can never just fire 40 damage worth of shots in one go - you have to spend some time between shots, which is in my opinion more likely to let you make a mistake so that pinpoint damage is not likely - but if you're really good, you can still "beat" this. But it requires actual skill, not just the game handing you your reward for managing to group 4 guns together and firing them at once.

DocBach, on 17 July 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

can you teach me to be a better mechwarrior like you? I don't understand concepts like cover and concealment so I stand still trying to put my reticle over the target but my trackpad makes it hard to aim.

Only powergamers use track pads. Use a steering wheel, they were made for simulators like M:WO.

[MustrumRidcully]

DocBach, on 17 July 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

what if the class of 'Mech I'm driving has a silly engine cap limit so I move very slowly and easy to track, and my armor levels even maxed are much lower than the assaults shooting massive alpha strikes can take out an entire location with each hit every time I torso twist to spread the damage?

The other question is: What if I don't boat?
I know, it's dumb not to, but man, imagine using 2 medium lasers, 2 SRMs and a Gauss Rifle. That are 3 weapon groups you have to fire within 4 seconds and you need different leads for all, and you need to hold one group on target for a full second.

How much time is really left for defensive torso-twisting? 2 maybe 3 seconds?

That's one of these neat boating advantages few, if any, ever talk about.

[sokitumi]

Another convergence thread. Deep sigh. These ideas about bullets not going where you shoot are not a good idea for anyone but truest TT nerds and baddies that are just not very accurate. You want a game that nobody plays?

[Milt]

convergence is a pipe dream. PGI simply does not have the time to do this. Start thinking of solutions that are doable in their time frame. Would you rather have the greatest game ever with outdated mechanics and graphics or a game that is great and current?

[Purlana]

Milt, on 17 July 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

convergence is a pipe dream. PGI simply does not have the time to do this. Start thinking of solutions that are doable in their time frame. Would you rather have the greatest game ever with outdated mechanics and graphics or a game that is great and current?

A game can't be the "greatest", without having good mechanics. And where is my community warfare already PGI!

Edited by Purlana, 17 July 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[verybad]

Purlana, on 17 July 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

A game can't be the "greatest", without having good mechanics....

If a game can't work in the first place because the desired mechanic causes problems then another mechanic is necessary. Know of any other game that uses so many weapons at a time AND uses convergence? Didn't think

Edited by verybad, 17 July 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[Purlana]

verybad, on 17 July 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

If a game can't work in the first place because the desired mechanic causes problems then another mechanic is necessary. Know of any other game that uses so many weapons at a time AND uses convergence? Didn't think

Even other FPS games don't have pin point accuracy on almost every weapon. At lest they have recoil on some weapons.

Edited by Purlana, 17 July 2013 - 09:17 AM.