48 replies to this topic

[P e n u m b r a]

FupDup, on 17 July 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

The only bullet-based weapon in TF2 without spread is the Sniper Rifle (and the variants of it).

actually wrong all projectile weapons pretty much are rocket launcher / flamethrower and im pretty sure the railgun and revolver are also Q3 railgun spot on no travel time again anything projectile based lands at cross hair did you even play these games?

Edited by Le0yo, 17 July 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Steel Claws]

The problem with every convergence fix I've seen is that they are fine vs an opponent that that's either standing still or coming straight at you. Once you start having to add lead all bets are off. Someone suggested having to get a solid target lock by having your cross hairs over a target for a period of time, but when you lead someone this isn't going to happen and then there are the lights to contend with. Others want the shots to spray in the general direction of your target - fine when close but not so good when you are at a distance and again when you lead someone all bets are off because the reticle is on some point behind the target. Even now when you are leading a target there is no such thing as all the shots hitting one location. Sorry I'd rather my shots go where I aim them for if they aren't why bother aiming - it becomes spray and pray - and that's not fun at all.

[FatBabyThompkins]

TF2:
Cone of fire


Cone of fire


Cone of fire


LITERAL CONE OF FIRE:


COD
Cone of fire


Cone of fire


BF3:
Cone of fire


Cone of Fire



I could go on...

Each has CoF until zooming in. Then, and only then, does the reticle jump after each shot so as to make sure the next shot is not auto hit in the same spot.

And please do not read into my post as a CoF supporter. I was merely refuting your argument.

Edited by FatBabyThompkins, 17 July 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[Master Q]

Steel Claws, on 17 July 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

The problem with every convergence fix I've seen is that they are fine vs an opponent that that's either standing still or coming straight at you. Once you start having to add lead all bets are off. Someone suggested having to get a solid target lock by having your cross hairs over a target for a period of time, but when you lead someone this isn't going to happen and then there are the lights to contend with. Others want the shots to spray in the general direction of your target - fine when close but not so good when you are at a distance and again when you lead someone all bets are off because the reticle is on some point behind the target. Even now when you are leading a target there is no such thing as all the shots hitting one location. Sorry I'd rather my shots go where I aim them for if they aren't why bother aiming - it becomes spray and pray - and that's not fun at all.

#1 - Lights have to get in close. Where convergence doesn't mean nearly as much anyways once you are in point-blank range.

#2 - So learn to use locking weapons like missiles then?

#3 - Once again you are one of those doofuses who can't tell the difference between "perfect convergence" and "random number generator."

Perfect convergence = all weapons go to the same spot all at once.
Imperfect convergence = weapons have a known offset. Think back when we had the Hunchback bug and anything in its Autocannon slot was firing a bit to the left of the crosshair. That was imperfect convergence and it would be a BENEFIT to the game.

Random Number Generator = the cheap way out, "random cone of fire where you don't know where it is going."

Imperfect Convergence is the best solution. An alpha strike hits multiple places on the mech, reliably. Want to land your shots all in the same spot, re-aim and adjust for the imperfect convergence individually. An AC40 alpha has as much spread as a pair of LRM20s hitting.

Imperfect convergence, not Random Number Generator. It's not "spray and play", it's "learn to work with the sights and aim accordingly." More skill, not less.

[Steel Claws]

BlackBeltJones, on 17 July 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Currently the convergence in MWO is automatic and requires almost no skill or pilot input, other than moving the reticle over your target. That is at any range your weapons will automatically converge on a target and do (nearly) pinpoint damage, again all without any skill from you. If we decoupled weapons convergence then you would need to adjust your hold for each mounted weapon, this would require much more skill than the current auto convergence we have. You simply can not argue that the current convergence system reflects a higher skill level than a system with 1) no convergence or 2) convergence defined by a slider style mechanic. Just imagine trying to fire two pistols and hit one target at 50 yards, then imagine trying to hit the same target at 100 yards. To do so you will need to open your convergence up so the projectiles do not collide before they hit the target. MWO does this adjustment for you and most of the people calling for a convergence adjustment would like to see each pilot need to manage the aim and hold for each set of mounted weapons independently, thus requiring greater aiming skill.
To decouple the current convergence does not create a dice-roll or random hit mechanic and your comparison to other FPS is shortsighted because those games do not feature multiple mounted weapons (sometimes meters apart for one another) that can fire simultaneously.

You are assuming the target is standing still and no lead is required. Against better players you will never have this unless you are using lasers and then there is the damage over time so that the damage will never be all in one spot. Any time your reticle is off the target - i.e. lead - you will not have convergence. I also fail to see how skill ties in to convergence. Unless you are going to have everyone dial in a firing solution the only way I see removing convergence affecting skill is in a negative way because then it becomes spray and pray.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I wish people would stop focusing on what other games do and focus on Mechwarrior.

And more specifically what Battletech and Mechwarrior represent.

Battlemech's are kings of the battlefield. When they strode across the landscape it was an awe inspiring moment to the people of the planet they were on.

We've gotten to where being in a Battlemech doesn't mean anything. We've taken the amazing job PGI has done creating multiple attackable body parts and left it by the wayside.

They might as well go the Hawken route and just give mechs a bit hitpoint bar.

We need to get to where battles aren’t ended in 20 seconds. If two mechs meet up one on one, it should be a dance of death, with limbs hanging by their actuators, missiles flying out, followed by lasers melting armor and autocannons spewing out hot metal death and gouging out armor across the Battlemech.

The feel of the game is entirely wrong for what it is. If you want pinpoint one shot kills. This shouldn’t be the game for you.

Whether it’s requiring chain fire, a global cooldown on weapons or convergence; SOMETHING needs to slow the game down and create a situation where thought goes into each shot. Using the module to speed up gaining information on the mech you are fight becomes an important tool.

We need something that creates a situation where you need to decide whether to try and go after destroying a weapon or going for the kill is the right move.

What we have now is not hard to play, it requires no thought. We meet up, point at our center torsos and mash a button.

But what we have now, and what PGI has planned do not fix this at all.

[P e n u m b r a]

FatBabyThompkins, on 17 July 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

TF2:
Cone of fire


Cone of fire


Cone of fire


LITERAL CONE OF FIRE:


COD
Cone of fire


Cone of fire


BF3:
Cone of fire


Cone of Fire



I could go on...

Each has CoF until zooming in. Then, and only then, does the reticle jump after each shot so as to make sure the next shot is not auto hit in the same spot.

And please do not read into my post as a CoF supporter. I was merely refuting your argument.

that's hip-fire though where you shoot a larger target like i said. while long range cycled weapons and scoped are pin point... in mwo players want it applied to long range weapons it would force a one dimensional brawler only game.

Edited by Le0yo, 17 July 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[P e n u m b r a]

Quote

Russ Bullock
@russ_bullock
Still lots of responsibility on you the player, keep your head down.Still very viable and acceptable to eat a pair of pinpoint PPC's.

and yeah this game IS a shooter its advertised as one mechwarrior is its own thing its based on the TT but its not it its like say dawn of war...

and bias opinions again over in 20 seconds? match times have actually increased since ranged has become viable.

Edited by Le0yo, 17 July 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Le0yo, on 17 July 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

that's hip-fire though where you shoot a larger target like i said. while long range cycled weapons and scoped are pin point... in mwo players want it applied to long range weapons it would force a one dimensional brawler only game.

As I said, until zooming in (which TF2 does not do, except snipers). But they have a one bullet one trigger pull concept. And then, after a round is fired, it moves the reticle.

MWO on the other hand, can fire many weapons all at the same time and at the same location and not have any reticle movement after. MWO is reminiscent of old shooters like quake and tribes, but they relied upon one action is one bullet (or charge).

[pesco]

Le0yo, on 17 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Why exactly is there so much crying about implementing a cone of fire system or some sort of convergence and all this rubbish about it being a balance problem? before you reply just stop and think for one second really think...

Now tell me why does EVERY successful shooter have pin point accuracy if its not fun? weapons in other games within their

You mean those successful shooters where you can "customize" your soldier to fire four assault rifles at the same time instead of one and most enemies are big, slow, and armored so four rifles kill them 4x as fast as one?

Before you reply, just stop and think for one second, really think...

[P e n u m b r a]

pesco, on 17 July 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

You mean those successful shooters where you can "customize" your soldier to fire four assault rifles at the same time instead of one and most enemies are big, slow, and armored so four rifles kill them 4x as fast as one?

Before you reply, just stop and think for one second, really think...

again dumb point its about the raw damage they deal and time to kill. 2 er ppc one gauss does not equal the damage of a single sniper rifle bullet in other games they usually have a faster cycle time and no heat penalty as well....

hence why it does actually feel like you are hitting armored targets as you have to hit a single location many times with the current anti boat rules in place. (and why it is different from other shooters)

and TF2 again its all the close range weapons that are random if you fire that sniper rifle at the rate of a ppc it will land at the cross hair every time along with all the projectile weapons being pin point in the game.

Edited by Le0yo, 17 July 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[BlackBeltJones]

Steel Claws, on 17 July 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

You are assuming the target is standing still and no lead is required. Against better players you will never have this unless you are using lasers and then there is the damage over time so that the damage will never be all in one spot. Any time your reticle is off the target - i.e. lead - you will not have convergence. I also fail to see how skill ties in to convergence. Unless you are going to have everyone dial in a firing solution the only way I see removing convergence affecting skill is in a negative way because then it becomes spray and pray.

Moving has nothing to do with it - I do not assume still targets at all. Imagine you had four guns mounted to your body - one in each hand and one attached to each knee and you have the ability to fire them with your mind. With this configuration imagine shooting at a target with all four guns - those shots may all land but they will not all land in the same place. Now imagine what position you would need to maintain to allow your fired bullets to converge on a single point on the target. The position required for a converged shot will be radically different than for a non converged shot, though in both instances all four bullets may hit the target - and the speed of the target has no impact on this. Currently MWO adjusts for a dynamic convergence at varying ranges and it requires nothing from the pilot. If your torso mounted weapons, instead, had no convergence then each pilot would have to aim and hold (and track) appropriately to get all weapons on target and only hope for pinpoint convergence in rare circumstances when the telemetry allows.

[P e n u m b r a]

so you want to make everyone a walking shotgun where there is only one way to play charge in till the mech is so visually large your cannot miss and proceed to mash your mechs against each other?

[FupDup]

Le0yo, on 17 July 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

actually wrong all projectile weapons pretty much are rocket launcher / flamethrower and im pretty sure the railgun and revolver are also Q3 railgun spot on no travel time again anything projectile based lands at cross hair did you even play these games?

The TF2 rocket launcher and flamethrower aren't bullet-based, try again. The "railgun" is just a sniper rifle variant (The Machina). The revolver has a cone of fire.

Edited by FupDup, 17 July 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[P e n u m b r a]

FupDup, on 17 July 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

The TF2 rocket launcher and flamethrower aren't bullet-based, try again. The "railgun" is just a sniper rifle variant (The Machina). The revolver has a cone of fire.

no they are projectile based just like gauss and ppc although slower projectile but faster time to kill

Edited by Le0yo, 17 July 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[Master Q]

If we wanted to play a "battletech" game with a Call of Duty or Halo skin, the MechAssault *shudder shudder twitch twitch* servers for the old Xbox Live are -->thataway.

[Airborne Thunder]

The game is fine the way it is. It seems like every update makes this game less fun. I mean heat damage before auto shutdown kicks in? Heat scaling? Jump jet nerf? Now you guys want to institute a "spray and pray" feature? I think in 3050 they could figure out how to make multiple weapons fire at the exact same location, heck they can do that with today’s technology. I'm sure they have computers for that in 3050. No other Mechwarrior game had the "cone of fire" and they all seemed to work just fine. Leave the game alone before they nerf the fun right out of it. They are so concerned about accommodating for new players and whiners that they just keep making the game more frustrating. I wish the game would fully launch already before they make it unplayable.

Edited by Airborne Thunder, 17 July 2013 - 12:35 PM.

[P e n u m b r a]

Master Q, on 17 July 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

If we wanted to play a "battletech" game with a Call of Duty or Halo skin, the MechAssault *shudder shudder twitch twitch* servers for the old Xbox Live are -->thataway.

Thats like me telling you to go play mechwarrior tactics.. fish

[BlackWidow]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 17 July 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

What other games had their rule set adapted from a table top game with random hit locations?

What other games out there have humanoid robots with multiple destroyable parts?

OH WAIT!

None.

This. No *only* this though.

Most FPS players can fire a SINGLE WEAPON at a time.
Most FPS everyone's "ARMOR" is identical. They are just humans.
Most FPS don't take "multiple points" of damage to take down. 1-3 shots is usually enough. i.e. Most shots *ARE* alpha strikes.

Please don't ever try to compare a Mechwarrior SIM (any of them) with a FPS (any of them). You will just hurt and embarrass yourself.

[Pinselborste]

if pinpoint accuracy is the Problem, how it Comes it wasnt an issue in MW:LL?

the answer: MW:LL got its weapons balanced for its gamemechanics, unlike mwo where PGI tries to use TT stats that where never meant to be used for realtime and pinpoint accuracy.

not to mention that clantech is balanced in MW:LL