79 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

Swivel mounting the ct on the locust would be a cool perk.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I hope the twenty ton mechs bring with them an overhaul of the Pilot Lab. The Mech Efficiencies need a big tweak since they give so many benefits with no drawbacks right now once unlocked.

In particular, I'd like to see how modifying, replacing, or even removing Speed Tweak (and then modifying the engine caps for the 20 to 40 ton mechs) can help diversify mechs more (across all classes) and provide more of a choice been speed and mobility or more firepower in more cases, since there is quite a bit of overlap with most variants and build options.

And then, there are Jenners that get the best of both right now in being the fasted lights with JJs and solid Firepower, with the Raven 3L and Cicada 3M not too far behind in also having excellent utility from ECM; leaving the rest of the lights and Cicadas needing a bit of help to be competitive against those mechs.

[Voivode]

Well, if they are able to figure out the CryEngine stability issues related to mechs going faster than 150ish KPH then the 20ton mechs could become harder to hit than the Spider is right now.

[Bilbo]

Voivode, on 23 July 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Well, if they are able to figure out the CryEngine stability issues related to mechs going faster than 150ish KPH then the 20ton mechs could become harder to hit than the Spider is right now.

The spider isn't particularly hard to hit. Now, if we could only get those hits to register we'd be in business.

[Wired]

They WOULD have a purpose right now if people werent vehemently against capping.Cus, you know, the closed beta wasnt played with capping being the primary objective or anything...

[Elizander]

They should probably add timed objectives in the game. Lights are great when you need to blow up vehicles and small structures or if you have to chase down a convoy. Scenarios where generators have to be destroyed in order to power down heavy defenses on a facility are great as the slower mechs hold the line while the faster ones go around and do the job.

The ability of weapons in MWO to go past TT weapon ranges also hurts light mechs a lot. Instead of dancing out of weapon range to keep targets locked on they can be hit from any range with high damage weapons due to the 2x/3x range modifiers that MWO has.

Wired, on 24 July 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

They WOULD have a purpose right now if people werent vehemently against capping.Cus, you know, the closed beta wasnt played with capping being the primary objective or anything...

PGI can add non-victory affecting capture points in the game. For example:

Mode: Assault

Additional Objectives:

• Salvage Convoy - Map (x) has an NPC salvage convoy that will leave the map in the first 3 minutes of the game. Chase down the convoy, destroy the lead vehicle to stop it, then cap it like a node to gain a 20,000 c-bill salvage bonus at the end of the match for entire team.
  
• Mech Facility - Destroy 2 turrets then cap like a regular node. Your team will receive an extra 50GXP at the end of the game.
  
• Supply Drop - Same as Salvage Convoy somewhat. Cap a specific node and once you do, a supply drop is made to it, giving your entire time an extra 10,000 c-bills and 100 XP at the end of the match.

Lights and other fast mechs can run off for these objectives but they won't end the match immediately like with bases. Numbers are just pulled out of nowhere and other incentives can be made such as achievements, unlockable cosmetics, etc.

There are other things that can be added that can affect the battle but not end it.

• Radar Stations (or whatever) - Capping these nodes gives vision of all enemy mechs within (x) meters and cancels opposing ECM within the area until they are captured by the enemy or it can be a 1 time capture that reveals all enemy mech locations for 5 seconds.
  
• Airbase Capture - Lance Leaders all get 1 free Airstrike to use in the match as long as they hold the base.
  
• Supply Base Capture - The capturing mech gets 1 free UAV to use during the match. This base cannot be captured more than once.
  
• Mech Facility Capture - Friendly mechs that spend 30 seconds on this facility will get 1 free Cool Shot 6 to use during the match.

These are just random things that I can think of to help spice up the game for light mechs. It's like getting buffs that can help out your team and make you more of a factor in the match.

Edited by Elizander, 24 July 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[Mechteric]

Assuming the mech is smaller than a Commando, or the same size even, its going to be hard to hit. But honestly if proper weight total based matching ever makes it then that alone makes it worthwhile as the rest of your team can take heavier tonnages.

[Gevurah]

Honestly in the current meta I can't see them having much use beyond light harrassment (302 KPH trash is still trash) or capping. But neither is shockingly effective in a way that has a meaningful contribution to the current meta. The only way I can forsee making it a viable addition to any stable would be to give it a proper gimmick (I like the torso mounted swivelling guns idea) as well as add more interesting/useful mission objectives. Lights are a mission-role or cost cutting platform, pure and simple.

You either run them because:
You *NEED* the speed to accomplish a goal or...
You *NEED* to keep it cheap to fulfill your objective (i.e. it's all you can afford or it's not profitable to do a contract for 50k that will cost you 300k in R&R) or...
You are keeping BV costs down.

In the current metagame there's absolutely none of that.

• The only objective is a poorly finalized 'capture' point.
  
• Cheap is out with anyone playing and getting 8.5 million in their first 20 or so games - people can pretty much buy whatever they want out of the gate
  
• The game rewards high alpha builds in terms of cbill salvage points.

This isn't meant to be a major criticism I just think we're going to end up sitting on our locusts for a while as we wait for the metagame to catch up to the mech selection.

[The Mech behind you]

I guess it will be as hard to hit as a Spider but with more Lasers. I guess it will be more maneuverable than a Jenner. I guess it will be great at capping, scouting, spotting, TAGing. I guess it will be able to harass heavies (and maybe mediums) like the 35t lights can harass assaults.

[MoonfireSpam]

If drop weights ever make it in, in any iteration then a variety of different weight mechs is awesome.

[Deathlike]

All I will say is that a Firefly (30 ton IS mech) would probably be better than whatever DOA 20 ton mech pops up (especially if they cannot make magic on the engine).

JJs, ECM, Missiles... the only negative would be speed... but even that could be buffed a little (it should be slower than a Spider at the very least)..

[Corvus Antaka]

tonnage limits. lets say 200 tons for a drop. thats 2 locusts and 2 victors.

[Borengar629]

I don't think that any weight class is obsolete at that point.

It really is a matter of the pilot after all. I have seen lights devestating whole teams of heavier mechs and I've seen Commandos that thought it was a great idea to stand still so they get a better aim.
I also saw Atlases that didn't turn their torso the slightest bit and died with both arms intact. But I also saw Atlasses that had nothing left but their center torso with one medium laser and they won the match.

It is not the mech alone.
The problem in MWO is that piolots are not introduced to the system properly. Sure the trial mechs are a nice try to do so, but they are really stupid when you think of it.

One mech of every weight class only? And then most of the times the worst chassis there is in that specific class - let's say that useless BJ for example with the 0,89 heat efficiancy.
Who is able to deduct what class he is most able to play by that? None is, it's as simple as that.
They should make all stock variants trial mechs at the same time with the restriction that you don't get XP with them (when did they change that... you didn't get XP in trials in the beginning and none complained) and that you only get half the c-bills after your cadet bonus expired.

That way you could really test all the mechs and find out which one suits you most. And you would still be obliged to buy your own mechs so you can level them up and customize them.

The problem as of now is not that specific mechs are useless it is that most pilots are in the wrong mech for their playstyle.

P.s.: And drop tonnage limit should be implemented as soon as possible, like some already wrote here.
Make it about 230 - 240 tons per lance and we'd all be fine.

Edited by Trickshot, 24 July 2013 - 11:37 PM.

[aniviron]

Trickshot, on 24 July 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

I don't think that any weight class is obsolete at that point.

It really is a matter of the pilot after all. I have seen lights devestating whole teams of heavier mechs and I've seen Commandos that thought it was a great idea to stand still so they get a better aim.
I also saw Atlases that didn't turn their torso the slightest bit and died with both arms intact. But I also saw Atlasses that had nothing left but their center torso with one medium laser and they won the match.

It is not the mech alone.
The problem in MWO is that piolots are not introduced to the system properly. Sure the trial mechs are a nice try to do so, but they are really stupid when you think of it.

One mech of every weight class only? And then most of the times the worst chassis there is in that specific class - let's say that useless BJ for example with the 0,89 heat efficiancy.
Who is able to deduct what class he is most able to play by that? None is, it's as simple as that.
They should make all stock variants trial mechs at the same time with the restriction that you don't get XP with them (when did they change that... you didn't get XP in trials in the beginning and none complained) and that you only get half the c-bills after your cadet bonus expired.

That way you could really test all the mechs and find out which one suits you most. And you would still be obliged to buy your own mechs so you can level them up and customize them.

The problem as of now is not that specific mechs are useless it is that most pilots are in the wrong mech for their playstyle.

P.s.: And drop tonnage limit should be implemented as soon as possible, like some already wrote here.
Make it about 230 - 240 tons per lance and we'd all be fine.

Sure, I've seen spiders do tons of damage; I have also seen people who honestly believe the earth is flat. Strange things happen in this world. The question you are pointedly ignoring is: how often do assaults and heavies do well vs how how often do lights do well? The reason you don't answer that question is because while it is true that an exceptional light pilot can do well, most of the time the only function of lights on the battlefield is to give the assaults something to shoot before they plod into range of the other team's assaults. If assaults weren't more valuable to their team than lights, we wouldn't have tonnage matching. The only thing a light can do that an assault cannot is cap rush.

I've seen other posters here make the same argument- that the mech doesn't matter, the pilot is all that matters. That's a terrible argument- it implies the SDR-5K or RVN-4X is every bit as good as a STF-3F or AS7-D-DC. That's insane. And while sure, there are players who can manage to do alright in the former mechs, they do much much better in the latter.

And the reason for this is because MWO is still based on the tabletop game. In the tabletop game, for the amount your opponent has to requisition to bring an atlas to the game, you can have four fleas, with enough left over to bring a tank or something. In MWO, if your opponent brings an atlas and you brought a flea, you're just ******- it's 8v8, so you won't be able to outnumber him.

Which, conveniently enough, brings us back to the topic at hand: the 20 ton mechs will be terrible. I keep seeing people posting in this thread "Oh yeah but they will be so fast it will be amazing omg." No, they will be 150kph maximum, same as every other light in the game. PGI hasn't fixed the speed cap problem yet, and they show no signs of being any closer to doing so soon. So now you've got a mech that goes the same speed as a Jenner with only 60% of the armor and almost no weaponry. It might be a bit smaller than a Spider, but unless it also has the spider's hilariously bad hitboxes, it's still not going to last very long. With max armor, a single AC20 shot will take off a leg a core a flea, with enough damage left over to bring the CT to orange. If a 2xppc + gauss or 3xppc heavy lands even a single shot on any non-arm location, the game has just ended for the pilot of the flea or locust. I just can't imagine this mech doing anything on the field, except maybe dying a lot.

[Borengar629]

Like you say yourself there is one tiny thing that you conveniently overlook yourself.
This game is never meant to be 1vs1. And by the way in a 1on1 situation I can tel from waht I saw so far that it is by far not always the assault that is coming up top.

Though it is clearly that the assault will have the advantage on his side. If both are noobs it is pretty safe to assume assaults outmatch lights. If both are experienced players I don't think it is so easy to predict.

And in an 8vs8 situation a team with only assaults will find themselves not only outcapped but also outfought in most cases against an enemy team that is well mixed up.

Lights themselves do little damage that is true. But they are very capable off sustaing that little damage over a long period of time without taking a lot of damage themself. Suvivabilty is not only defined by sheer firepower.

I do admit on the other hand that the speedcap is a real problem at the moment and should be fixed soon. But MWO is a teambased game. And depending on the strategy there is no obsolete class in the game.
The use of a light is to scout, to cap and to strike. If you find that to boring ok. Maybe lights are not for you. But there are people that like just that about them.
The real problem is matchmaking, so that there are no more teams with6 assaults and 2 heavys against 4 lights, 2 medium and 2 assaults. That is the real problem here.

[Prezimonto]

Variety, flavor, and in a practical sense, if we get tonnage limits and 12v12 there will be room for a 20 tonner here and there on team comps that want heavier mechs everywhere else.

If they enforce a 200 to 220 ton weight limit per lance on average, a 20 mech becomes reasonably appealing to balance an atlas or Highlander. With 200 tons per 4 mechs on average you still have room for 2 40 to 45 ton mechs with an altas or Highlander. With 210 tons per 4 mechs on average you can can fit a: 90, 65, 45, 20... giving you a mech in each class or a larger mech in a class mixed with mediums and lights. And sure, you might be better off with a 40 and a 25 tonner on a lance to lance basis, but in a 12 vs 12 with 3 lances there's easily room for that 20 ton mech under pretty strict tonnage limits.

[Thorqemada]

Game breaking speed!

[Shae Starfyre]

I would say the variety exists to match up with Tonnage Limits in the competitive field.

If you are limited in tonnage, the choice will be there to fill in the gaps as needed (albiet, this might be lowering a heavy to a medium and upping a light to a medium instead of forcing in another 20tons because you can now).

But still, it is probably so that there are more possibilities, and in 12 man teams, organized, mine you, that 20tons might come in handy for all kinds of things.

[Tombstoner]

VanillaG, on 17 July 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

They will only be valuable once tonnage limits are put in for drops. Taking a 20 ton mech fast mech instead of a 30 ton fast mechs means someone else in the drop can bring more weight. These types of mechs will give teams the ability to min/max a drop.

Exactly and in premade team matches. you now have a small dedicated scout/spotter for LRM's.
If you only think one dimensional your stuck in assaults for the damage output. Indirect LRM fire will gut your team.
this is why you must watch the sides/ rear of your formation. when team work is combined with LRM's yes they become OP but they are also working as intended... adapt. 20 tone mechs are not DOE in the hands of a skilled pilot/team.

[Lucy Cameron]

As long as they are not as big as Cicada, they should be somewhat ok. They need to be quite small though.