22 replies to this topic

[DeadlyNerd]

Now that we have heat penalties for weapons in general, how about developing this further and specifying different heat penalties for each mech.

In another thread the OP is complaining about the Awesome not having the 3 PPC heat cap, and with a good reason. The mech is built to sustain this amount of heat, yet PGI figured to just ignore that and feel righteous about their "new feature".

Some mechs are built as LRM boats, some as PPC boats, some as laser boats etc. That is their BT function and that shouldn't be ignored in a game that's trying hard to stay as close to BT as possible.

Sure this may take time( like any other software upgrade that wasn't accounted for in the past DUH), but it will give each mech its own flavor.

[Josef Nader]

The Awesome actually -isn't- designed to fire all three PPCs constantly, instead using "volley fire" to keep from overheating.

You would fire three PPCs, and end up with -just- enough heat that you aren't suffering penalties. The next turn, you'd fire two PPCs, and cool down enough that you could fire the third PPC the next turn. Repeat ad infinitum.

[DeadlyNerd]

You could still fire 3 PPCs without taking heat penalties. Everything else is a matter of mech heatsinks.

[Lupin]

I have read a lot of topics on this subject and seems it comes down to learning to play better.
Is 1/2 a second delay THAT bad. As far as I can see the only players effected by heat penalties are them that do not under stand how to set up weapon groups/chain fire or players looking for an arcade game shot-em up.

[Unbound Inferno]

Josef Nader, on 18 July 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

The Awesome actually -isn't- designed to fire all three PPCs constantly, instead using "volley fire" to keep from overheating.

You would fire three PPCs, and end up with -just- enough heat that you aren't suffering penalties. The next turn, you'd fire two PPCs, and cool down enough that you could fire the third PPC the next turn. Repeat ad infinitum.

That is assuming its a proper heat system that dissipates heat like that.

What we have is a 30 heat base plus extra. We are given free alphastrikes with it.

[MaddMaxx]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

That is assuming its a proper heat system that dissipates heat like that.

What we have is a 30 heat base plus extra. We are given free alphastrikes with it.

And when the new Heat system gets completed, it will then be back to requiring the required (D)HS's be in place in order to do just that. Of course, that comes with cost of some other useful need, be it Speed or over-all armor values.

Alpha strikes will never go away, just the time required between doing it sequentially.

Those that will always strive for that 50+ Alpha, with their Assault Mechs will make those sacrifices, but will also need to get much closer to their targets to deliver it. Getting zapped by a kill shot from =< 270m is not a game issue, it is a player/piloting based one.

Where is the downside in that?

[IceSerpent]

Josef Nader, on 18 July 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

The Awesome actually -isn't- designed to fire all three PPCs constantly, instead using "volley fire" to keep from overheating.

You would fire three PPCs, and end up with -just- enough heat that you aren't suffering penalties. The next turn, you'd fire two PPCs, and cool down enough that you could fire the third PPC the next turn. Repeat ad infinitum.

Uhm...you do realize that term "volley fire" means alpha-striking with multiple weapons, right?

[DeadlyNerd]

Lupin, on 18 July 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I have read a lot of topics on this subject and seems it comes down to learning to play better.
Is 1/2 a second delay THAT bad. As far as I can see the only players effected by heat penalties are them that do not under stand how to set up weapon groups/chain fire or players looking for an arcade game shot-em up.

ANYTHING is bad if it doesn't fit the lore when it can. This is not a matter of l2p, but a matter of l2design pointed towards PGI.
The Awesome was built for shooting the 3 PPCs without heat penalties. That's why it's has such a huge profile. If stalkers were being used to exploit the PPC meta, why were Awesomes affected with the "fix"?

Problem with the current alpha meta is far more elaborate than heat. In BT mechs were designed to perform certain roles, and because of that were created with such models where the hunchback has a big hunch where the main gun's at. Stalker was never designed for boating PPCs, yet it's the mech that offers best PPC sniper performance.
Sure, this can be fixed by implementing heat penalties for boated weapons but it WON'T fix the problem if all mechs are affected equally.

I understand though, this is hard to comprehend for the masses and it's easier to just yell "L2P" like the little trolls you are, than actually try and piece the thing together and look at the problem as a whole.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 18 July 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Josef Nader]

IceSerpent, on 18 July 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Uhm...you do realize that term "volley fire" means alpha-striking with multiple weapons, right?

Quote

Volley fire is a tactic in Classic BattleTech wherein some weapons fire is alternated every one or two turns. This is perhaps most explicit when using Succession Wars-era technology, though many upgrades that utilize lostech are also designed to take advantage of volley fire.
For example, many 'Mechs carry two PPCs, but only between sixteen and nineteen heat sinks, as is the case with the Marauder and Warhammer. Ideally, the fire is alternated between one and two PPCs being fired every other turn, thus building just enough heat that the 'Mech is unaffected, then letting it cool back down the next turn, ad infinitum. Some chassis mounting other 'hot' weapons like lasers (especially the ER and Pulse versions) also benefit from volley fire.
The Archer and Awesome are other examples of 'Mechs designed to use volley fire, but, instead, they can fire their entire long-range armament for two turns before cycling one out for one turn to allow the 'Mech to cool, then restarting the cycle again.

I know exactly what volley fire means. The Awesome is designed to alpha strike, then fire one less PPC the next round, like I said.

DeadlyNerd, on 18 July 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

You could still fire 3 PPCs without taking heat penalties. Everything else is a matter of mech heatsinks.

The OP's complaint is that the stock awesome is being penalized and it should be able to handle it's heat. I am presenting a counterpoint, saying that the Awesome had to play a certain way to remain heat neutral, and could not constantly alpha all three of it's PPCs.

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

That is assuming its a proper heat system that dissipates heat like that.

What we have is a 30 heat base plus extra. We are given free alphastrikes with it.

True. I think one of the biggest changes that needs to be made to MWO is the removal of the flexible heat cap. You get 30 heat. Deal with it. If you're overheating, you need to not fire so many weapons at once. Not every hardpoint needs to be firing all the time for maximum damage. You're supposed to build with range brackets in mind, where you are heat neutral within certain ranges and your less-optimal weapons aren't firing outside of those ranges. With a fixed heat cap of 30 we can buff single heat sinks to be less utter garbage (ten single heatsinks should be able to manage 3 medium lasers without heat gain if the mech is walking) and they might become less necessary for everything. With the variable heat cap you can just alpha till the cows come home.

DeadlyNerd, on 18 July 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

ANYTHING is bad if it doesn't fit the lore when it can. This is not a matter of l2p, but a matter of l2design pointed towards PGI.
The Awesome was built for shooting the 3 PPCs without heat penalties. That's why it's has such a huge profile. If stalkers were being used to exploit the PPC meta, why were Awesomes affected with the "fix"?

Problem with the current alpha meta is far more elaborate than heat. In BT mechs were designed to perform certain roles, and because of that were created with such models where the hunchback has a big hunch where the main gun's at. Stalker was never designed for boating PPCs, yet it's the mech that offers best PPC sniper performance.
Sure, this can be fixed by implementing heat penalties for boated weapons but it WON'T fix the problem if all mechs are affected equally.

I understand though, this is hard to comprehend for the masses and it's easier to just yell "L2P" like the little trolls you are, than actually try and piece the thing together and look at the problem as a whole.

You should probably read the thread before posting, champ. The Awesome has 28 single heat sinks stock. It generates 30 heat per PPC volley, plus an additional 2 heat if it runs. This means that it starts taking penalties with the second alpha.

So, in order to properly manage it's heat, the Awesome fired 3 PPCs one turn, then 2 PPCs the next turn. This kept it's heat under control and prevented it from taking penalties. It is -not- designed to constantly fire it's 3 PPCs till the cows come home. It has to manage it's heat by staggering it's weapons fire, kind of like -exactly what we have to do now-.

Edited by Josef Nader, 18 July 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[DeadlyNerd]

Josef Nader, on 18 July 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

The OP's complaint is that the stock awesome is being penalized and it should be able to handle it's heat. I am presenting a counterpoint, saying that the Awesome had to play a certain way to remain heat neutral, and could not constantly alpha all three of it's PPCs.

Again, it was able to fire his 3 PPCs WITHOUT suffering heat penalties because IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO THAT.
An absolutely different problem is that PPC heat in general had to be sustained with heatsinks and moderate rate of fire.
Even with old heat rules in MWO, you couldn't shoot the 3 PPCs constantly, shot after shot, without overheating rather quickly.
Also, TT heat for PPCs is 10 and, as someone said, your mounted heatsinks didn't provide extra heat threshold like they do in MWO.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 18 July 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Josef Nader]

No, it couldn't.

Turn 1: 3 PPCs = 30 Heat ==> Disappates 28 Heat ==> 2 heat
Turn 2: 3 PPCs = 30 Heat ==> Disappates 28 Heat ==> 4 Heat
Turn 3: 3 PPCs = 30 Heat ==> Disappates 28 Heat ==> 6 Heat ==> -1 Movement

This is if the Awesome is completely stationary. If it's moving at all, it's taking the -1 movement on Turn 2, and a penalty to hit by turn 3.

The Awesome was never meant to alpha all the time. It can't handle it. It is designed to volley fire, like I said above.

[Ph30nix]

id just rather they completely redo the heat system lower the cap double the dissipation rate, get it to where even the biggest mechs can get ONE alpha off if they are at zero heat and either have them just barely reach over heat zone or have them hit a heat range of like 70-90% where they have to wait a few seconds to fire ANYTHING.

then down to the bottom where the lights can basically alpha all day long with very little problems.

in the end the entire heat system needs a major overhaul. for the most part anything past the standard 20 DHS from the engine is just wasted in everything but the assaults and even they dont have the room for many DHS. You will get MAYBE one extra shot off before over heat with fully loaded DHS

[Coralld]

Make it so that the Awesome and the Awesome only can fire 3 PPCs/LL at once without suffering the heat penalty as a quirk so that people may actually look at the Awesome and go "Hmm, that could be useful." Other then just skipping it for a Stalker.

[General Taskeen]

Simple answer is: Its whack yo.

[KuruptU4Fun]

IceSerpent, on 18 July 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Uhm...you do realize that term "volley fire" means alpha-striking with multiple weapons, right?

No, the military tactic of "volley fire" is to have multiple soldiers fire their weapons all at once...

[Sturmforge]

They need to remove the 30 extra heat cap you get from every mech, give every mech a heat cap built around how many and what type of heat sinks it has, then dissapate at triple for singles and 6x rate for doubles (or even 2x and 4x) to make up for tripled rate of fire. This will disscourage Alpha striking since just one alpha on said Stalker would shut you down if moving and firing 4 PPCs, or with an XL at 64kph you could do this all day but the XL is a weakness to being able to alpha and move. Also they need to move the weapon heat back closer to original values. Also this would make single heat sinks more usefull for thes heat intesive builds.

No

KuruptU4Fun, on 18 July 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

No, the military tactic of "volley fire" is to have multiple soldiers fire their weapons all at once...

Close though I think volley fire has more to do with the front rank firing then reloading while the next rank fires, allowing you to keep a steady rate of fire with multiple weapons.

Edited by Sturmforge, 18 July 2013 - 02:14 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MaddMaxx, on 18 July 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

And when the new Heat system gets completed, it will then be back to requiring the required (D)HS's be in place in order to do just that. Of course, that comes with cost of some other useful need, be it Speed or over-all armor values.

Alpha strikes will never go away, just the time required between doing it sequentially.

Those that will always strive for that 50+ Alpha, with their Assault Mechs will make those sacrifices, but will also need to get much closer to their targets to deliver it. Getting zapped by a kill shot from =< 270m is not a game issue, it is a player/piloting based one.

Where is the downside in that?

You do know (remember) That on TT an Awesome could fire 3 PPCs then 2 PPCs every other turn without over heating (28 single sinks) right? That is how the heat system is supposed to work not this dumb as a rock BS we have now.

[IceSerpent]

Josef Nader, on 18 July 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

I know exactly what volley fire means.

Apparently not, as volley fire means "the practice of having a line of soldiers all fire their guns simultaneously at the enemy forces on command" and has absolutely nothing to do with alternating anything.

Quote

The Awesome is designed to alpha strike, then fire one less PPC the next round, like I said.

No, Awesome is designed to gain heat when alpha striking and lose heat when firing fewer than all 3 PPCs. How many times you want alpha strike in a row depends solely on how lucky you feel at the moment.

Edit:

KuruptU4Fun, on 18 July 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

No, the military tactic of "volley fire" is to have multiple soldiers fire their weapons all at once...

Which is different from alpha-striking with multiple weapons how exactly?

Edited by IceSerpent, 18 July 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[Sturmforge]

A stock Awesome in this game should shut down when firing all 3 PPCs, yet be able to fire all day long with only 2. Under the current system even without the new penalties this is not possible.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sturmforge, on 18 July 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

A stock Awesome in this game should shut down when firing all 3 PPCs, yet be able to fire all day long with only 2. Under the current system even without the new penalties this is not possible.

No an Awesome in this Game should be able to alternate on a 3:2 cycle as it could do all day long on TT. It should be able to do that with 28 single sinks.

Remember boys and girls they are supposed to be war machines. War machines are supposed to actually hurt the enemy when you use em. We are killing the intent of the game by pandering to the whiners.