11 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Okay, the new heat scale system is here. I want to talk about the "multiplier" values that define how much heat you produce once you go beyond "max alpha".

If you hate this system, it's okay. I am not a fan. But I want to talk about the system as it is and its implication, because that's the kind of stuff I do for a hobby sometimes. Sue me.

To reiterate the system:

Niko Snow, on 16 July 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Tell us what you think of the new Heat Scale Additions!

Spoiler

Heat Scale Addition
Heat scale has been added to certain weapon systems. This is a heat penalty applied to weapons that are fired in an Alpha Strike manner. The following chart shows the MAXIMUM number of that weapon type that you can fire at the same time with no heat penalty.

Weapon System	Max No-Heat Penalty Alpha	Scale Multiplier
PPC	2	7.0
ERPPC	2	4.5
ML	6	1.0
LL	2	2.8
AC/20	1	24.0
SSRM	4	1.0
SRM2	4	1.0
SRM4	4	1.0
SRM6	3	1.0
LRM15	2	2.8

Maximum Heat Threshold
You will now take internal damage at 100+% heat. Reduced from 120%

The question to me is, do the values make sense, or what kind of behavior will these values lead to?

If I fire 2 AC/20s at once, it seems by this system I'll produce about 40 heat, the heat of 5 AC/20s. Would you ever fire two AC/20s at once? Or would you either not build a mech with 2 A/C20s, or always set the weapon to chain-fire?

To me it seems the penalty is not worth the benefits. I'd never take it.

For 3 PPCs, the extra heat is almost a 4th PPC. Is that worth it? I doubt that many would take this penalty, but you might if you're really a sniper and a few extra seconds of cool-off time while you wait in cover between shots is not a big deal.
The 4th PPC - nah, the 6 PPC Stalker was already more or less a joke build before (often cited, but just too hot to be useful.)

It seems to me that these values need work. The extra penalty for PPCs can be worth it occassionally, the penalty for AC/20s seems never worth it. So what's the goal? DO we just want people from firing more than max_alpha ever? Then the AC/20 values make sense.
Except... Why even allow it at all then? It seems it cna only serve as a noob trap as it is, because most players will switch to chain-fir eor a different build. The chain-fires might enter emergency situations where they'd want to risk that alpha, but will they have the group-fired weapon group set up in time, and will both weapons be off cooldown in such a situation?

On the other hand, if you just want it to be trade off, and people decide to occasionally take the penalty and sometimes avoid it, the PPC values and the SRM values might work for that.
But if we want that, the AC/20 value seems too high, because it will never be worth it.

[TexAce]

They should make the Awesome 8Q (the one with the 3 PPCs in stock layout) have its PPC penalty start at 4 PPCs.
THAT would be a quirk.

Just give a reason like "This model has been altered with special universe magic power absorbers which make its conductors super efficient with PPC weapons and it still remains the only mech ever designed this way by the IS" and people would dig it.

Edited by TexAss, 18 July 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Zyllos]

Or remove the the heat scale and actually fix the root issue of the problem, pin point accuracy.

[Zyllos]

SSRMs, SRMs, LBX, and Machine Guns already spray naturally.

Just get the other weapons to balance out in the same manner and everything will be good.

LRMs need the same treatment as SSRMs (basically do the same time except in groups of 5 LRMs).

LBX will need to fire the flak canister that explodes into fragments (like it does now) so that it can utilize it's full optimal range.

Machine Gun needs a bit smaller CoF.

Every other weapon needs a limit to the number you can fire within a short amount of time before you introduce a CoF.

Basically, take PGI's heat scale table, and instead of applying heat scales, introduce CoF. Which is essentially what Homeless Bill's idea is, except he wants weapons to lose convergence instead of introducing a CoF.

[TheDeckardCain]

Zyllos, on 18 July 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Or remove the the heat scale and actually fix the root issue of the problem, pin point accuracy.

I was thinking about this... What this game needs is dice rolls in the background. Everytime you shoot a virtual dice roll takes place to see where you end up hitting the mech, and it does this for each weapon hit! That would be epic

/sarcasm

Convergence is fine. Its the heat balance that needs worked out, I think its very close tbh.

[FupDup]

TheDeckardCain, on 18 July 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

I was thinking about this... What this game needs is dice rolls in the background. Everytime you shoot a virtual dice roll takes place to see where you end up hitting the mech, and it does this for each weapon hit! That would be epic

/sarcasm

Convergence is fine. Its the heat balance that needs worked out, I think its very close tbh.

Ya'know, it is in fact possible to address convergence without using RNG or dice. Evidence:
http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

http://mwomercs.com/...active-reticle/

[Joseph Mallan]

Shouldn't there be a Multiplier on every weapon? And why is there a Multiplier only on LRM15? Why don't we have a +16 on AC10s? I mean if we are going to punish players using some weapons we need to punish anyone who uses more than 2 or three of every weapon! This is the dumbest thing I have seen since Solaris 7 cyclic rates.

[TheDeckardCain]

FupDup, on 18 July 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ya'know, it is in fact possible to address convergence without using RNG or dice. Evidence:
http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

http://mwomercs.com/...active-reticle/

what I'm saying is - its fine.

I dont see a reason to change convergence in anyway. If you fix the High alpha build problems (ie PPC) you will not have a need to "fix" convergence. I think Homeless Bill's idea is over the top and short sighted. If they fix one issue there will be no need to do anything.

Later when they balance the heat, which again I think they are close too, you're going to have weapons hitting all over the place people chain firing left or right. These are heavy machines with very heavy Gyros, you mean to tell me that they shouldn't be able to fire all weapons at once & be able to zero in?

[hammerreborn]

FupDup, on 18 July 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ya'know, it is in fact possible to address convergence without using RNG or dice. Evidence:
http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

http://mwomercs.com/...active-reticle/

And both of those ideas are ******* pants on head ********.

[Joseph Mallan]

hammerreborn, on 18 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

And both of those ideas are ******* pants on head ********.

And +24 heat for 2... Again 2 ACs is a smart and just fix? This whole "fix" is a bunch of Bull.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I wish they'd come out with a command chair explaining it.

I have been playing my 3 x SRM 6 Centurion.

I set the SRM 6's to chain fire to help with some of the hit detection issues.

The damn thing seems to be taking some kind of penalty though, I was under the impression that if I chain fire I won't hit the penalty.

Did I misunderstand?

[hammerreborn]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

And +24 heat for 2... Again 2 ACs is a smart and just fix? This whole "fix" is a bunch of Bull.

I never said either was a terribly great idea. But the heat scale at least leads to a meta change (in that ac40s are now chain fired or ac20 + guass and dropping ppc boats to ppc + guass).

Neither convergence idea changes anything (except maybe shifting which chassis youre stacking ppcs on, namely the Heavy Metal), and makes just as much sense (you mean if I alpha all 4 PPCs at the same time all of a sudden my targeting computer which is showing a pinpoint shot goes....NOPE! and spreads everywhere but if I only fire 2 of them it gives me a thumbs up?)

Edited by hammerreborn, 18 July 2013 - 03:02 PM.