42 replies to this topic

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Rippthrough, on 21 July 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Then there's more morons around than I thought. Biggest, easiest target on a cent, the leg. Leg it, headshot it.

Or shoot it in the diaper if your hitting it from behind, because it counts as the front CT

[stjobe]

GridIroN, on 21 July 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

These are my opinion, but as a fellow Centurion pilot, I'm pretty steadfast my changes are better. No offence. Personally, I wouldn't run your build, but if I had too, those would be my criticisms. Interested what you have to say though.

You're quite welcome to your opinions, I just took exception to the fact that you claimed your improvements were "1000%". They are marginal at best, and if you feel you get legged more often than ST'd, I have no issue with you stowing your ammo in that ST. I wouldn't do it myself, but then I lose STs in just about every match. I very seldom lose a leg.

Josef Nader, on 21 July 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Odd, almost every death I eat in my Cents are to legging, and I rarely die to CT coring until I've lost both arms and both side torsos.

I rarely lose a leg until I've lost both arms and both side torsos. I've plenty of kills with just legs, CT, and head.

Rippthrough, on 21 July 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Then there's more morons around than I thought. Biggest, easiest target on a cent, the leg. Leg it, headshot it.

There's always more morons around than one thinks.

But regardless of that, I almost never get legged, and almost never get headshot. The vast majority of my deaths are by CT coring (usually after both arms and STs are gone).

With that in mind, would either of you gentlemen store ammo in a location you know has a higher probability to get destroyed than another? If not, I don't see the issue.

[pow pow]

if you don't boat lrms, they re pretty useless... can't imagine having them on a cent, especially the A var, and especially with latest patch that 3xsrm6's will wreck faces.

If you want long range poke get an Ac2. if anything comes near you, you got the ~36 dmg alpha from the srms (that alone is more than a gauss+2ppc typical sniper build) Fit large engine and try to use mobility to get behind assaults and core them in 2-3 hits.

[Josef Nader]

stjobe, on 22 July 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

I rarely lose a leg until I've lost both arms and both side torsos. I've plenty of kills with just legs, CT, and head.

Then your attackers are wingnuts. With the current FOTM 2PPC/Gauss, it takes two shots and change to blow off your leg. 35 point alpha x 2 = 70 points of damage in 4 seconds. Your leg? 48 points of armor + half that in internals = 72 points to legged. Plus, it's a bloody -massive- target. Thick like oak stumps and not moving fast enough to be hard to hit. Once your leg is gone, you're moving at ~15kph, and the next leg is even -easier- to take off. Total time to Cent death from first shot? 16 seconds and change. 24 seconds if you have zero allies helping you out and the Cent is completely fresh.

I love the Cent. It's my favorite medium right now, edging out the Hunchback I've loved since Closed Beta. However, if you aren't legging enemy Centurions to kill them, you're working -way- too damn hard. Burning through both arms and side torsos is way too damn complicated.

Edited by Josef Nader, 22 July 2013 - 04:02 AM.

[riverslq]

Abrahms, on 19 July 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

So what youre saying is that you dont like it when people in heavier mechs take heavier weapons, and then can actually aim with them?

2xPPC+1xGauss is 35 damage, and they wont all hit the same spot because of different travel speeds and convergence quarks. Especially if you are moving.... If you sit still though, yes all 35 dmg can hit one spot.

Thats also the same as what a single hunchback boating medium lasers can do to a single spot...


You were jut outgunned, outweighed, and outplayed... of course you will lose

The bigger issue is how they will balance the mech weights in a game, not the pinpoint accuracy. Sorry, first person games rely on player skill, get used to it or get better.

Look at World of Tanks for example.
It takes skill, AND a bit of luck AND it's relatively balanced (artillery aside)

This is not COD.
FFS, even COD and Battlefield have aiming cone of fires based on movement speeds.

Bet you're just a boating mech yourself huh? W/D is all that matters, **** having fun.

[Master Q]

MasterErrant, on 20 July 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

the convercence issue is gettinghitwith two erppc and a gauss in the head as you leave the lover base in the forest. twice this week. that's a cata standing at the top opf the rockpile hitting an awsome and a highlander just leaving the seaside base about thirty seconds into the game. it happens often enough that it isn't a fluke. if "I" (or anyone else) am stationary taking hits from a mech within it's effective range take target hits that's my fault. if anyone takes targeted hit at extreme range while moving, it's either cheating or that games fault.

I don't have a problem with a swaybacks 6pack hitting a silgle logation....it's supposed to. I do have a problem with it happening at 500 meters. likewise two AC's on one arm of a jeager but not four on two arms. it's an antiaircraft machine designed to throw a cone of fire in fron of fighters moveing exponentially faster than mechs. (And the lack of Aircraft in this itteration of the game is moot)

Convergence doesn't need to be stopped it needs to be limited. it takes a lot more skill to maneuver into an effective range and use terrain to protect yourself that it does to stand out of the enemy's range and take potshots.

Yes, both the forest and the River City map have big problems with one team taking 5 steps forward and being able to lob potshots. River City is actually worse for this: the team that gets the high-side (with the dropship) can actually jump on top of the dropship or move forward a few steps and be able to snipe into the enemy spawn zone directly. It's ridiculous and stupid, not to mention incredibly non-fun, that one team automatically can take free-fire while the other team has to hunker down and run through open areas just to manage to not be shot up.

[Lykaon]

Abrahms, on 19 July 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

So what youre saying is that you dont like it when people in heavier mechs take heavier weapons, and then can actually aim with them?

2xPPC+1xGauss is 35 damage, and they wont all hit the same spot because of different travel speeds and convergence quarks. Especially if you are moving.... If you sit still though, yes all 35 dmg can hit one spot.

Thats also the same as what a single hunchback boating medium lasers can do to a single spot...


You were jut outgunned, outweighed, and outplayed... of course you will lose

The bigger issue is how they will balance the mech weights in a game, not the pinpoint accuracy. Sorry, first person games rely on player skill, get used to it or get better.

You seem out of touch with how this game actualy plays out.

First off, 2 PPCs and 1 gauss mounted on the same mech and fired at the same target in group fire will absolutely all strike the same body location on the target.Target moving shooter moving no difference all weapons hit the same spot so this is nothing but ignorance or deliberate disinformation.

Secondly Comparing boated medium lasers to combined PPC and gauss fire further shows you lack a fundamental understanding on how weapon damage is applied to targets.

6 medium lasers will indeed do the same damage as 2 PPCs and 1 gauss HOWEVER,the huge difference is the PPC and gauss can apply all that damage nigh instantly to the same location by "frontloading" all of it's potential damage at once.

The medium lasers will require the gunner to keep the weapons on target during the entire duration of the laser's damage application.If the target reacts to taking the damage like turning to the side 6 med. Lasers that were aimed at the target's CT have now spread damage across the CT/one side torso/one arm defusing the damage and not concentrating all of it to one spot.

Reacting the the 2 PPC + 1 Gauss in the same way means 35 damage struck the CT now you have reacted by turning not all that effective you still got 35 points on CT the lasers whould have difused damage along the lines of 11 points to CT 11 points to RT and 13 points to RA.This effectivley means that 6 medium lasers would need to be fired 3 times to apply the same damage to the target's CT as the PPC/Gauss combo does in one shot (not to mention med lasers do not reach out and deal damage at 900m so the PPC/Gauss boat will likely have landed a few hits on the medium laser boat before the medium laser boat can even hit)


When I read a post like this one I have to wonder if I'm even playing the same game as this poster or if maybe (more likely) this poster is one of those dead weight players that can't break 100 damage piloting an assault the ignorance is stunning.

[pow pow]

Lykaon, on 22 July 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

You seem out of touch with how this game actualy plays out.

First off, 2 PPCs and 1 gauss mounted on the same mech and fired at the same target in group fire will absolutely all strike the same body location on the target.Target moving shooter moving no difference all weapons hit the same spot so this is nothing but ignorance or deliberate disinformation.

You have no idea what you are talking about do you? ppc's and gauss have different projectile velocities, so if you are doing the right thing and firing both at range, at a moving target, you can be sure that the gauss will not hit at the same spot the ppc's will.

[Rippthrough]

pow pow, on 22 July 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

You have no idea what you are talking about do you? ppc's and gauss have different projectile velocities, so if you are doing the right thing and firing both at range, at a moving target, you can be sure that the gauss will not hit at the same spot the ppc's will.

Aim.

[Deathlike]

Rippthrough, on 22 July 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Aim.

Shocker... what madness is this!?!?!

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 21 July 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Well lets try not to blame PGI for the pin-point alpha meta. They probably didn't want it.

Most probable explanation is that PGI is too inept and lazy to make a completely new shooting mechanics for alphas.

Or they paid to much attention to the guys with Skillz in closed Beta who demanded faster/better convergence.

[Corvus Antaka]

Rippthrough, on 22 July 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Aim.

Troll.

[Joseph Mallan]

pow pow, on 22 July 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

You have no idea what you are talking about do you? ppc's and gauss have different projectile velocities, so if you are doing the right thing and firing both at range, at a moving target, you can be sure that the gauss will not hit at the same spot the ppc's will.

That wasn't the results I had with an ERPPC and Gauss combo on my Atlas.

[Slaytronic]

it would be fun and seem like more of a real battle if they just cut all weapon damage in half then it would be great epic slightly longer battles less bitching about dying fast to high alpha strikes

[stjobe]

Slaytronic, on 22 July 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

it would be fun and seem like more of a real battle if they just cut all weapon damage in half then it would be great epic slightly longer battles less bitching about dying fast to high alpha strikes

Funnily enough, that's about what the much-maligned "TT purists" are generally suggesting; that since rate of fire was roughly doubled or tripled, damage needs to be cut by the same amount (on a per weapon basis) and we end up with damage values much closer to TT values (over a period of 10 seconds, which is the length of one TT turn).

Of course, that's just one of the issues plaguing MWO at the moment; the heat system that enables massive alpha strikes and the lack of a convergence system (or other damage-dispersal system) making those massive alphas hit the same point also needs addressing.

[Ningyo]

I often run balanced builds, and they can be very effective though it still is hard for them to compete with a gauss + 3PPC 732 or such.

Some I have found to be effective
Stalker 5M: 2 ER-PPC, 3 ML, 5 aLRM 5
Jaggermech 6A: 2 UAC/5, 2 ML, 4 LRM 5
Highlander 733: Gauss, 2 PPC, 3 aSRM 6, aSRM 4

and you can say all you want that last one isn't a balanced loadout, but it has a long ranged sniper weapon (Gauss),
2 medium range weapons (PPC), and a bunch of short ranged weapons (SRMs)

The thing is while boating exasperates many of this games problems, it is not directly at fault. The primary culprit is pinpoint alpha allowing you to place all your damage on a single component.

[PEEFsmash]

stjobe, on 21 July 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

It's a Centurion. Nobody tries to kill it by legging it.

Over about 800 or so drops with CN9s, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've died by legging.

Thank you for becoming the new poster-child for #MakeEloPublic. How will you accept your payment?

Top players leg Centurions 100% of the time. DV8 has been doing it for many months, and the other top units do the same. Why? Because Centurions can roll damage stupidly well on their torsos. They take advantage of the damage transfer system and their tiny CTs are extremely hard to hit, whereas their legs are big, easy to hit, packed with ammo, and unprotectable.

You just walked into this thread and labeled yourself as a poor player who has never (or should I say, only as many times as you can count on 1 hand) played against anyone good. Your input on balance is not relevant because it comes from the experience of playing with and against bads.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 23 July 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Tombstoner]

PEEFsmash, on 23 July 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

You just walked into this thread and labeled yourself as a poor player who has never (or should I say, only as many times as you can count on 1 hand) played against anyone good. Your input on balance is not relevant because it comes from the experience of playing with and against bads.

WOW simply wow......His opinion is relevant simply because he represents whats happening in his Tier. Balance can not be looked at simply as top only. yea bad people play and bad people have fun and bad people have money. Lots of room in this game for everyone of all skill levels, so need to discriminate or hate on them.

[stjobe]

PEEFsmash, on 23 July 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Thank you for becoming the new poster-child for #MakeEloPublic. How will you accept your payment?

Having such a dizzyingly top-notch player as yourself deign to post a response is surely payment enough. I am truly humbled by your pearls of wisdom, and will immediately mend my ways to align myself with the ex cathedra from one more worthy than me - even though it will mean I get killed more, but that doesn't matter as long as I heed the words of the truly elite.

Right?

PEEFsmash, on 23 July 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

You just walked into this thread and labeled yourself as a poor player who has never (or should I say, only as many times as you can count on 1 hand) played against anyone good. Your input on balance is not relevant because it comes from the experience of playing with and against bads.

No, you just walked into this thread with a chip on your shoulder a mile wide, and an attitude to match.

Are you seriously telling me to not build for my matches, but for your matches? Is that what the "Church of Skill" preaches?

I'm a PUG, always has been. As such, I'll build for what I encounter. So what if I'm "a poor player" who plays "with and against bads", at least I'm not stupid enough to preach building for gameplay that doesn't happen.

[Skyfaller]

Stalker builds are fairly easy to 'balance'. The hardpoints alone do it.

STK-3F

The problem with a build like this is that if it meets someone with 2 ppcs or more its just toast. The pinpoint instant application damage and range of the PPCs overwhelm the lasing+area damage of the srm/LL/LRM.


As long as there is DHS 2.0 in the engine and as long as there is instant perfect convergence of weapons that permits the heavy, long range 10+damage popguns to strike one armor plate....there will be no balanced builds of any sort.