38 replies to this topic

[Strisk]

Unobtainium, on 11 June 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Why should it be 12v12 ? Using Company vs. Star (12v5) in the beginning of the invasion and Company vs. Binary when IS tech starts to catch up would bring more interesting and balanced match-ups. So even with the Zell IS would have a chance, and without... all would depend on how the Clan weapons are ported to the game.

I'm not opposed to this idea, but there shouldn't be a system to force Zell, true clanners will offer it first anyhow.

[Murphy7]

Zell is something that can be handled by RP.

On a different note, I do hope things are balanced a bit by BPV, so a number disparity may be in place.

[Aelos03]

i must say F@#% zellbrigen people should play how they want no one is going to use tactic that is going to fail there are other methods to balance things.

[Woodstock]

IF clans are playable ... and I think its probably likely that they will be.

I like this idea ... each clan player 'tags' a IS opponent ... and that locks them out for the rest of their star.

The clan players will only be able to shoot at their tagged opponent.

UNLESS

An IS opponent fires at a different clan mech. Then that mech can fire at either IS mech. etc

[Max Liao]

Before you're allowed to pilot a Clan 'Mech, you have to sign a form stating that you will role-play as a proper clan warrior, including all bidding, Zellbrigen, and swinger parties. This form will be signed, Notarized, and sent in triplicate to the PGI legal team to hold against you at a time of their choosing.

...

Look, I'm more role-play and BattleTech lore/canon player than I am video/MechWarrior action gamer. And as much as I would love to see pure Zellbrigen put in the game - or better yet, move it back to 3015/3025 and forget the clans altogether - I just don't see it as possible. The unintended consequences of trying to implement any feature that enforces it out weigh the importance of having it.

Unless they implement and "RP" server, and I'm not sure how they could even do that, Zellbrigen is unfortunately left to the novels.

[Unobtainium]

Strisk, on 11 June 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

I'm not opposed to this idea, but there shouldn't be a system to force Zell, true clanners will offer it first anyhow.

I agree, forcing isn't the way to go, I wish they rather use a carrot than a stick on this issue. Rewarding xp for clan-like behavior
might do the trick, and it would fit in with the Role Warfare theme.

[Aelos03]

Woodstock, on 11 June 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

IF clans are playable ... and I think its probably likely that they will be.

I like this idea ... each clan player 'tags' a IS opponent ... and that locks them out for the rest of their star.

The clan players will only be able to shoot at their tagged opponent.

UNLESS

An IS opponent fires at a different clan mech. Then that mech can fire at either IS mech. etc

part before UNLESS won't work becuase clan are at big disadvantage becuase their targets are just going to run away from them to shoot someone else who can't return fire and other will do same its lame to hit a guy that can't hurt me, and no one is going to use it everybody is going to shoot everybody no one will care about duels only thing that can happened is IS exploiting that system to get easy wins.

[Thorn Hallis]

As said in the other topic about Zellbriggen - forcing players into a certain direction while they have other options is never a good thing for any game.

[Sychodemus]

Sorry, I know that I am in the minority, but I don't believe in treating the Clans like idiots.

Zellbrigen is a courtesy, much like the alluded to Knight's Challenge. In the homeworlds, the Clans used it as a matter of course; their battles were almost entirely ritualized challenges for territory, equipment, gene samples or status. So Zellbrigen made sense.

When they arrived in the Inner Sphere, they were participating in entirely different types of operations. Traditional combat operations where the opponent did not play by the same rules. There may have been early examples of Zellbrigen being offered, but after a few missions it had to be obvious that the Inner Sphere wasn't going to abide by it. So, there would be no shame in no longer offering it. The Inner Sphere chose to act like barbarians so the courtesy would no longer be extended to them.

Now, of course some Clan warriors would still announce to their fellows that a particular opponent was their's and their's alone. His fellow Clanners would be obligated to respect his claim as a matter of courtesy and honor. Meanwhile, the rest of the star can proceed to vaporize the rest of the opposing force. It is a personal choice.

Really, I have to ask if the Clans are so big and scary that we have to constantly invoke the glorified ******* contest known as Zellbrigen as a balancing factor. The Clans can and have been beaten with 3025 tech and equal numbers. It is hardly pretty nor certain but there you go.

[latdheretic]

My reccomendation is to offer a carrot to the clan players for playing Zellbriggen, not punish them for not doing so. Give them a small honor bonus to mission rewards to the degree which they follow it, and an end of battle achievement cookie and leave it at that. (As part of role warfare rewards.) That'll make it profitable to folow it as long as it is practical, without giving an artificial handycap to be exploited.

Edited by latdheretic, 11 June 2012 - 02:55 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I'm pretty sure that PGI would use matchmaking, ie asymetrical numbers and BV etc to balance any matches rather than Zellbriggen.No doubt many new players will have no idea (or care about) the lore and would just want to play with the better tech. We have plenty of time before the devs need to decide the details. After all they need to get the IS part of the game right first.

[CCC Dober]

Zell was difficult to follow through for the Clans because it wasn't mandatory. Especially not when the enemy was breaking the rules or didn't recognize them at all. Kuritan pilots were rather famous for engaging the Clans on these terms, despite having a serious disadvantage. Personal honor got in the way of better judgement one might argue, but I would never argue against the concept of personal honor as much as I would argue against religion. It's part of a culture and makes it what it is. That's also one of reasons why most of the big houses don't get along: cultural differences.

As for the question at hand: there is no easy answer. Zell got abused and will be abused for obvious reasons. It is more like an added incentive for those adhering to the rules and having a cultural background that promotes and rewards such behavior. If two such warriors meet, having a similar understanding of personal honor, then they would feel compelled to follow the rules of Zell/duels, if offered. Either explicitly or implicitly. If one of them does not, then there is neither loss nor gain. It's terribly complicated to explain that to somebody who does not understand the basics and much harder to make him accept it. The Kerensky trilogy covered this exhaustively where an IS pilot called Phelan Kell got captured by the Clans and thoroughly indoctrinated (good read btw). Reminded me a bit of Shogun. Gotta see how the devs will handle this. I'm sure they know 'a bit'.

[Draxern]

Murphy7, on 11 June 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Zell is something that can be handled by RP.

On a different note, I do hope things are balanced a bit by BPV, so a number disparity may be in place.

It would never occur then noone on the clan side would bother as it is a disadvantage which helps balance the battlefield with the IS in the early campaign. This may not be the ideal solution and i only created it for a discussion but i hope the developers do create a reason for balance in matches of clan vs IS.

Zellbrigen is also the reason clans would bid for the right to attack planets or reduce the size of their force in order to improve their honor. I am fairly sure the developers intend to place some restrictions on clan players to help balance the playing field.

And it will be tied into Zellbrigen be it game mechanics. Restriction on force size or bidding for the right to take part in the match.

[Unobtainium]

Sychodemus, on 11 June 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

but I don't believe in treating the Clans like idiots.

Zellbrigen is a courtesy, much like the alluded to Knight's Challenge. In the homeworlds, the Clans used it as a matter of course; their battles were almost entirely ritualized challenges for territory, equipment, gene samples or status. So Zellbrigen made sense.

...

Really, I have to ask if the Clans are so big and scary that we have to constantly invoke the glorified ******* contest known as Zellbrigen as a balancing factor. The Clans can and have been beaten with 3025 tech and equal numbers. It is hardly pretty nor certain but there you go.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 11 June 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure that PGI would use matchmaking, ie asymetrical numbers and BV etc to balance any matches rather than Zellbriggen.

Yes and Yes, I do agree with both of these points. And this brings us to the Bidding. If there is a bidding mechanism (that actually works and rewards bidding reasonably) the Zell. isn't really needed to balance things out. You can use it with or without any added bonuses to add to your own playing experience, without ruining the mission for others.

But this is only a speculation at this point. In board game , 12 Clan mechs could do all kinds of stupid things and beat 12 IS mechs of similar weight (3025/50 tech), due the extra +'s from skills, Targeting computer, range and pulse weapons. We have no idea as of yet how these things translate to the game, and how big advantage Clans have ton for ton (if any).

I look forward on finding out.

[CW Grayson]

Good topic. The thing is not so much how lore did zellbrigen, it's more how it can be transfered to MWO.
For lore; as the IS never stood up to zellbrigen, no clanner would give them the honour to, but in actual gameplay it was another thing.

Examples for battling Clan vs. IS:
In MW3 our Clan always took one mech lesser than the opposing IS force, to compensate for the better power. Also we never shot an enemy who is on ground and waited for him to stand up, regardless of them accepting the zellbrigen rules or not.
The 1vs1 rule never applied, as the IS always combined fire. Of course, if an IS force stated they follow zellbrigen rules we always accepted even as we had 1 lesser mech.

It was all for getting more fun out the game and to balance it out for ourself, be it clanner or IS, and it worked out fine for both sides.

The point is here; once the clan mechs/weapons are ingame, can everybody get them without any boundaries? If so it would be a bad decision because there is no difference between clans and IS-units, which will cut out roleplay expierience.

So yes, there should be handicaps for clan players and only time can tell if it's balanced.
Players simply give clantech will simply be bad imho.

Edited by CW Grayson, 11 June 2012 - 03:51 AM.

[Sychodemus]

Draxern, on 11 June 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

It would never occur then noone on the clan side would bother as it is a disadvantage which helps balance the battlefield with the IS in the early campaign. This may not be the ideal solution and i only created it for a discussion but i hope the developers do create a reason for balance in matches of clan vs IS.

Zellbrigen is also the reason clans would bid for the right to attack planets or reduce the size of their force in order to improve their honor. I am fairly sure the developers intend to place some restrictions on clan players to help balance the playing field.

And it will be tied into Zellbrigen be it game mechanics. Restriction on force size or bidding for the right to take part in the match.

That is more batchall related than Zellbrigen.

There are so many ways to do the Clans justice in MWO it boggles the mind. All we have to do is wait to see it.

[Thoman Coston]

Arafinar, on 10 June 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

IIRC Zell has to be offered and no self respecting clan would offer it to IS units.

Exactly . One must earn the privilege to be offered Zell by a Clansman. I compare a Zell with a duel of 2 groups in an official competition ring (circle of equals) to win a price (as bid by both sides in the batchall) , the fight is governed by a set of rules all involved fighters have to follow. Now those rules are only relevant to the fighters of the same discipline (Clans only). Anyone outside won't know or care to follow those rules..to be fair, why should they. Thus a battle outside Clan vs Clan is pretty much anything goes, you are red, I will shoot you .

[phelancracken]

Here are my 2 cents worth.

1. Zell is a RP element. It has never been used as a balance factor.

2. When the clans came out, the points system, then the combat value system, finally BV and BV2 systems came out to balance forces against each other. These systems did balance things to a decent degree and got better as time went on keeping fights even.

3. As for force size, A clan star was able to defeat usually, mind you, a company of 12 IS 3025 tech mechs. As the IS fielded more upgraded tech, the balance point started getting closer to the 10v12 area. As the IS mechs got betters speed from XL engines, DHS, longer ranged weapons and Gauss rifles, balance of power started to come back closer to IS. Now are they at parity? Won't say that. But they are much closer and if you use C3, ouchie. Clan ERLL and ERPPC gives clans significant advantages in range and or punch in energy weapons.

Here is a comparision in our actual history. Think Clans as the Germans and the IS and the Russians fighting in WW2 battlefields. The Russians overwhelmed the Germans with superior numbers. Quantity is a quality all it's own that the Russians used. Something to ponder.

[Skylarr]

Skylarr, on 04 June 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Why does it feel like allot of people who want to play a clanner are saying that "The Clans never used Zellbringing (or clan fighting system) against the IS barbarians".

I found this about the Clan Honor System on the web. I feel it is how the Clans would treat the IS:

Zellbrigen (Dueling)


Under the rules for ritual dueling, or zellbrigen, Clan players must declare a target for each of their dueling 'Mechs. A typical declaration might sound something like, "I am MechWarrior Seth of Clan Steel Viper. I pilot the sole Summoner in Alpha Star. I hereby invoke the ritual of zellbrigen and challenge the pilot of the Orion adorned with the unit designation eleven to a duel of warriors. In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!"

During a duel, no other Clan warrior may attack either of the dueling 'Mechs. If a third Inner Sphere unit interferes with a duel, the dueling Clan warrior may attack the interfering unit, provided that another Clan 'Mech has not already challenged the interloper to a duel. A duel ends when one combatant is destroyed, disabled or retreats from the battlefield.

At Honor Level 1, the Clan warrior upholds all the rules of dueling regardless of his opponent's actions.

At Honor Level 2, the Clan warrior follows the rules of dueling until the Inner Sphere side takes an action that violates the Clan honor code (a third party interfering, a unit involved in one duel firing on a 'Mech involved in another duel, and so on). If this happens, the duel immediately degenerates into a free-for-all.

At Honor Level 3, any infringement of Clan honor in the dueling rules renders the entire ritual of zellbrigen null and void, leaving the Clan 'Mechs free to attack any enemy unit without restraint for the remainder of the ehgagement.

At Honor Level 4, dueling rules do not apply.

Physical Attacks:

Unlike the formal ritual of dueling, the Clans' dislike of physical attacks in 'Mech combat is an informal, if widespread, custom. No explanation has yet been given for this distaste, though some experts suspect that Nicholas Kerensky chose to encourage a long-range fighting style among the Clans.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never makes physical attacks in 'Mech combat.

At Honor Level 2, a Clan warrior may make a physical attack only if an enemy unit makes one first. Any Clan unit may freely engage that 'Mech in physical combat.

At Honor Level 3, a single physical attack by an Inner Sphere 'Mech allows all Clan warriors to retaliate in kind against all enemy units for the remainder of the engagement.

At Honor Level 4, the taboo against physical attacks no longer applies.

Retreat:

Clan MechWarriors despise their Inner Sphere counterparts because they consider Inner Sphere armies dishonorable warriors fighting in inferior 'Mechs. Therefore, Clan warriors consider retreating from Inner Sphere opponents a disgrace almost beyond redemption. When allowed to choose whether or not to flee a losing battle, many Clan warriors prefer to fight to the death.

At Honor Level 1, a Clan warrior never retreats.

At Honor Level 2, Clan warriors may retreat from enemy 'Mechs that are using advanced technology, but never from 'Mechs, armor or infantry units using 3025 (Level 1) technology.

At Honor Level 3, Clan warriors may retreat from any vintage of enemy 'Mech, but will not retreat from armor or infantry units.

At Honor Level 4, Clan warriors may retreat at will.

Almost every Trueborn starts off at Level 1. Some may be Level 2. Freeborns will most likely be Level 2 and some Level 3. Dezgra or Solahma units would most like be in the 3 or 4 area. This is before the Battle of Tukayyid. Most invading Clans units slid down the scale with only the most elite units staying at Level 1.

How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.

Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.

After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.

Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.

This will not come into play during the random battles. I am guessing this will only come into play during pre-made battle between Guilds//Clans/Houses/Factions. Then it will be for bragging rights.

It should also be noted that most clans fought IS green and regular warriors with 3025 Tech. The more elite units with better Tech put up a good fight and may have won some battle, but, 12 (or 24) Mechs cannot hold a battlefield when their flanks are being over run.

Skylarr, on 09 June 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Can someone find the passage in the Novel were Natasha is questioned about the Dragoons failer to send Intel reports the last 20 years.

So the only current Intell the Clans had was from captured IS Officer and from Comstar.


As several people have stated before in multiple threads. ZELBRINGING CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT BE FORCED.


It should be REWARDED. Give Bonus XP and FAction Points. Institue an HP (Honor Point) system. If a Clan Warrior wants use Zellbringing he would just move his mouse over the target and see its HP level. Then tartegt him and maybe hit the letter "H". This would generate an Instant message on the tartget screen stating he is being challenged and by who. The the target can say Yes, NO, or ignore it.

For as long as Zellbringing is followed both sides receive HP. The Clanner could even ask multiple targets. This will not work in a fast pace battle.

Both sides would gain HP to be used on upgrade to their Mechs or even at high Lvl HP for the IS Mechwarrior to by Clan weapons and Equipment and at high lvls to buy a clan Mech. his would represent Salvage. This could also be used for teh Clan warrior to aquire an IS mech. I know most clanners will not want one , but, some may want one just to do random matchs. I am sure the Devs could work out the kinks.