91 replies to this topic

[Kiiyor]

GODzillaGSPB, on 20 July 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

You should change your play-style. Wait until the brawl is on, then get out of cover and shoot at those you have direct line of sight (LOS) on.

^ This.

LRMs suck at indirect fire, and rightly so. However, if you have Artemis, Tag and LOS, you can core -anything- in a couple of volleys. After witnessing a mate tossing out death in a Highlander LRM boat, I decided to try some mad scientisting. I rolled up an LRM Stalker, after noting my current kills and deaths in it. After 33 matches, I have the equivalent of a 6.9 KDR in it, all 100% pug, and I feel... dirty.

Don't let the lack of raw damage numbers fool you; nothing hits CTs more than TALRMs. It's your very own aim bot.

[C E Dwyer]

This is a troll post surely ?

or does the Op expect others to take the risks while he launches lrm 40 from 950 meters away or expect the other team to stand still while being shot at

[Nauht]

KuruptU4Fun, on 20 July 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Skill will always be debatable simply because people think that if you fire them they will hit. What LRM users do have to have is patience and the ability to use position to their advantage without repercussion. That my friend is the groundwork for the "skill" you seem to think using them doesn't have.

Congratulations - you've just described the first basic skill of every combat pilot.
That applies to every single pilot and with every single weapon.

The difference with a LRM boat is just to make sure the rock you're behind doesn't block the flight of your missiles.

There is no skill in fighting with LRMs - case in point, if you remove terrain obstacles and fought in a flat surface arena, do you have to actually aim with LRM's? Do you have to account for the target's speed, direction and lead fire? Can you tactically target a component to exploit a weakness of a mech?

No, you just have to face the enemy and wait for the red lock circle. Easy as pie.

That's not to say LRM boats aren't fun. I have one and it is fun to play but can be frustrating, but please, there is no skill involved with fighting with them. All you have to worry about is situational awareness, which everyone else has to as well but also think alot more tactically while also trying to aim weapons.

[El Bandito]

LRMs are certainly underpowered as opposed to popular direct-fire weapons. But to call it sucks is a bit too far.

[Shadey99]

Barantor, on 20 July 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Shadey you need to try a Trebuchet then, the mobility lets you get close enough to the brawls to drop a tag on something and with artemis on two lrm15s you can chew through them fairly fast. The treb still has enough slots (and arms) to be able to mount some energy weapons as backup when things get too close.

The catapult is a distinctive target and with the cockpit being so central and huge it gets taken out fairly easy. Lights know what they are going to get when they go after you in a pult.

I've never taken an interest in the Treb... And my Catapults mount 300XL engines so I can move around 80 kph or so, hardly slow. If I was going to pick a better Missile Boat I'd probably opt to wait for an Archer or Longbow to come out. The Archer even has arms... Though most models I believe mounted the lasers in the RT/LT anyways.

4xLRM10 with Art is... taxing... I'd rather not rework my Cats to see how it works for me. Still my point was that mechs using 2xLRM15 & 2xLRM20 were the defacto 'missile boats' of BT. If they don't get the job done, then something is wrong with missiles. Because it takes an Assault to do the job here for most.

They are also an entirely useless weapon on a map like Alpine where many engagements happen between 1200-1800m, brawling is rare, and the amount of cover is high. I seriously don't understand why direct fire weapons have nearly doubled ranges and LRMs stayed the same. Though as slow as they are a 1500m range would be funny as the enemy takes the next 15 seconds to move all of five meters and avoid them.

That's not even talking about how I've spent entire games unable to fire because of ECM... No other weapon in the game can simply be shut out of a match if your team happens to not run with enough BAP (& get close enough to use it) or ECM. People would be all over PGI if their lasers stopped working because they added chaff launchers.

[ShishiX]

I don't find LRM boats as effective in this game as in games like MW3 or MW4. However, I do like using LRMs as a support weapon for more balanced platforms. For instance:

AS7-D-DC: 1xLRM15/20, 1x SRM6, 1xSRM4 2xMPLAS 1x AC10 ECM/BAP/Artemis
In this role, I use the LRMs for indirect fire support while closing with its horrible 47.5 kph stock movement speed, then try to stay 200-300m from targets to stay in the ranges of all four weapon types. The LRMs are very effective; I'd say 1/4 to 1/2 of my overall damage in many matches comes from LRMs. Being able to run BAP/Artemis alongside the SRMs and LRMs is very helpful in that, and the Atlas doesn't have to worry as much about taking damage from being in direct line of sight due to its armor and ECM.

STK-5S: 6xMPLAS 2xLRM10 2xLRM5 2xAMS BAP/Artemis
This mech is quite a bit more LRM boat-y and is similar to a Catapult C1. However, higher armor capacity and the MPLAS help to discourage lights/mediums that assume you're a LRM boat and rush you. Heat is a bit of a problem with the MPLAS however. The playstyle very similar to what someone else described in this thread with their Cats, softening up targets with LRMs during the initial skirmish/brawl, then closing to 200-300m to use the MPLAS in the midgame.

I've tried running LRMboat Stalkers, Catapults, Trebuchets, and Awesomes, but just don't find them as effective as a more well-rounded 'Mech. Catapults and Trebuchets are the only canon LRMboats in the mechs we currently have, after all.

EDIT: I think AMS is one of the things that makes LRMs as weak as they are. Almost every heavy/assault and most mediums I see that can run AMS are doing so. When you have 2 or 3 AMS together, very few missiles will get through. I know that LRM5s are chainfired because it decreases total spread, but I'm not sure why it is as popular because that just gives more time in AMS range per missile. I hardly have to worry about incoming LRM fire with my STK-5S, as it has dual AMS and I'm usually in AMS range of another 'Mech with AMS. If anything, the fact that so many people run AMS shows that they are scared of LRMs

Edited by ShishiX, 20 July 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[RagenBull]

Skill will always be debatable simply because people think that if you fire them they will hit. What LRM users do have to have is patience and the ability to use position to their advantage without repercussion. That my friend is the groundwork for the "skill" you seem to think using them doesn't have.

I'm sorry i don't think not spamming fire and getting on a hill consists of lots of skill. For you this may be hard but most people find it easy. Get a spotter with tag and it is truly a easy task.

[Nryrony]

I agree that LRMs do sometimes feel useless, compared to my other mechs, a Cat even surviving a battle and emptied all its LRM ammo isn't very impressive on its DMG score. People usually hide behind cover run away or mass AMS.

On the other hand, there is nothing more annoying then LRM spams, since its forces you to use cover. With a spotter they are more annoying then the ppc Spam was before.

I agree that ECM is BS, it shouldn't make enemy's untarget-able, may be decrease radar range and chance to hit but never to be in complete stealth.

However, knowing this you can counter it with a TAG, but this kinda feels wrong.

[ShishiX]

Nryrony, on 20 July 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

I agree that ECM is BS, it shouldn't make enemy's untarget-able, may be decrease radar range and chance to hit but never to be in complete stealth.

However, knowing this you can counter it with a TAG, but this kinda feels wrong.

BAP and friendly ECM in counter mode is also a counter. I frequently run my ECM in counter on my AS7-D-DC to allow people to give LRM support when I'm in a brawl with enemy ECM.

[SmoothCriminal]

Yeah, if youve got 20 tons of LRM40, what's another 3 tons for artemis and TAG?

Only the CT. ONLY.

[Nryrony]

ShishiX, on 21 July 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

BAP and friendly ECM in counter mode is also a counter. I frequently run my ECM in counter on my AS7-D-DC to allow people to give LRM support when I'm in a brawl with enemy ECM.

I usually lack people like you, however its still a bit uber and I just don't like the concept - especially not an mechs other then lights.

Edited by Nryrony, 21 July 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Inhibition]

GODzillaGSPB, on 20 July 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

You should change your play-style. Wait until the brawl is on, then get out of cover and shoot at those you have direct line of sight (LOS) on. Since they're in the fight, they can't easily evade you. At the same time you actively help win the brawl.

When there's no brawl you need to get an angle on them. ECM is hardly as numerous as it was a few months ago. Try to flank them (try not to do it alone though), get LOS, shoot.

Yes, the days of racking LRM kills from cover are over. You have to adapt I'm afraid, they wont make LRMs into the fire and forget weapons they used to be and that's good news. At least for me...sorry. ^^

Good point but I stopped using LRM's because I noticed this tactic can only be done in flat, open maps like
Tourmaline and Alpine. This tactic would not work well if a light or medium attacked you as well

[Barantor]

Oh another thing....

Don't blow your load (of missiles) too early....

Seems a lot of times folks in catapults want to hit the first thing that is lit up before any brawling starts. This is when I usually try to figure out where the enemy is and what angles I can hit them without them being able to hide, or driving them out into the fire of my friendly brawlers.

An atlas behind what he thought was cover usually makes him move out from that cover and try to at least engage the enemy, especially if he can't see or hit where I am. Then I re position again in order to be able to hit his sweet, sweet rear torso.

If all the ppcs have fired you end up really beating the heck out of assaults and heavies, you just have to save some missiles and not be spotted or run around by lights first.

[Lyoto Machida]

This is hilarious...I bought an AWE-8R recently and it turned out to be the fastest mech I ever mastered...not that I kept track of that but I'm talking about the shortest amount of time to master. Only a gut feeling but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Now, my issue is that its too easy to grind C-Bills and get kills/damage in it so I don't ever want to leave the cockpit. Sucks because I have a Victor I need to get to Elite right now...

Not that my stat line is that crazy...I'm sure there's LRM pilots out there doing even better than this.

I don't hang out on hills 900m back from the action...I stay 250-400m back from the target or directly behind the brawlers with 4 LRM-15s, 2 MLs and a TAG and mainly direct fire my LRMs. This is in groups or in PUGs. If you want to hang out 900m away from the enemy and indirect fire all day long, just choose Alpine and Caustic only once they start letting you choose the map you want to drop on.

If you want to use LRMs effectively, you're probably going to have to bring a lot of tubes, all the add-on equipment and direct fire them.

TL;DR: You're doing it wrong. Also, if you're not carrying your own TAG, you're doing it extra wrong.

[Doc Sunshine]

Shadey99, on 20 July 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

4xLRM10 with Art is... taxing... I'd rather not rework my Cats to see how it works for me. Still my point was that mechs using 2xLRM15 & 2xLRM20 were the defacto 'missile boats' of BT. If they don't get the job done, then something is wrong with missiles. Because it takes an Assault to do the job here for most.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "taxing". Alls I know is, I was running my C4 with a 20 and a pair of 15s, swapped out for the quad 10s, and the world opened up. I drop the full 40 on anything that's a) bigger than an Awesome, behind some AMS, or c) close enough that they're about to drop under 180m or shoot enough fire up my nose that I have to turn away.

Otherwise, I chain fire. This gives me a tighter cluster for constant CT erosion, plus it saves on wasted ammo if the target dies/finds cover/breaks lock. Plus, the constant rain is disruptive, much like heavy AC2 fire. As menacing as the LRM90 cloud is, the LRM10 waterfall just doesn't stop. At least in my ELO (let me add, I'm no big timer), I'm solidly effective even without LOS at ranges passing 800m.

I just added a Target Decay module a couple days ago (soooo expensive), and I haven't made less than 1000xp off a winning match since.

* dangit, that smiley face is just "item b".

Edited by Doc Sunshine, 21 July 2013 - 04:05 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Let's be honest here...LRM boats are pretty "easy mode." The main thing you have to be aware of is your positioning...like with every other weapon delivery system. The drawback is the amount of time on target you have to spend before the missles get there...sucks to take PPCs to the chest while doing so.

[Ngamok]

Shadey99, on 20 July 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I have mastered catapults and owned all four types. In general what makes LRMs good are 2 things: People out in the open and away from their team. Massive numbers of them. My 2xLRM15 builds get tons of assists, but few kills (simply not enough damage).

My 2xLRM20 A1 can get a couple kills, but even a medium mech (like a hunchie) in good range (500m) and in the open is 6+ barrages (40x6=240 missiles fired) to achieve a kill. Now if it was my K2 Cat, I could fire 2-3 2xPPC barrages and he would be dead... Or My 2A Cicada with it's 2xLL + 4xML would take about the same. My C1 Cat runs 2xER LL + 2xLRM15s & has artemis and tag, I often don't do more than soften them up with the LRMs and then move in for the kill with lasers.

Now if I scale this up and drop barrages of say... 50 or 60 LRMs at a time (Stalker or LRM only A1) I could probably drop the required number of barrages to kill, but not missiles.

All and all, since the game doesn't reward assists nearly as much as kills and the Catapult is a support mech first (outside the K2 which can be a mild brawler or ok sniper)... It's often more rewarding to go use something else. I don't really like the way it seems to take a LRM boat focused only on LRMS or an assault mech chasis full of launchers to make LRMs effective.

A1 - 4xLRM10 2xSRm6, chain fire the 10s.

[Shadey99]

Doc Sunshine, on 21 July 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "taxing".

I mean managing to fit it. My C1 for instance runs 2 LRM15's with art and runs tag, but my A1 cannot run tag at all and running a 4xLRM10 build with art would mean dropping any close in fighting power it has. Because I can't trust anyone else to protect me, when I ran it stock people would never notice me dying to... well anything... So it has to mount SRMs as the only possible weapon and I often take people by surprise with them. I certainly couldn't fit 4xLRM10s with art and my SRMs. Even so art costs for each launcher using up tonnage and raising their price.

Lyoto Machida, on 21 July 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Let's be honest here...LRM boats are pretty "easy mode." The main thing you have to be aware of is your positioning...like with every other weapon delivery system. The drawback is the amount of time on target you have to spend before the missles get there...sucks to take PPCs to the chest while doing so.

From the person running them in an Assault mech, sure. Try something only a bit more than half that size.

Ngamok, on 21 July 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

A1 - 4xLRM10 2xSRm6, chain fire the 10s.

And hope they don't carry AMS? Because if they do those lines of LRMS (from chain firing) is just going to eat up their AMS ammo. And that is still on top of the other team not having ECM, which is rare these days.

[Doc Sunshine]

Shadey99, on 21 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

I mean managing to fit it. My C1 for instance runs 2 LRM15's with art and runs tag, but my A1 cannot run tag at all and running a 4xLRM10 build with art would mean dropping any close in fighting power it has. Because I can't trust anyone else to protect me, when I ran it stock people would never notice me dying to... well anything... So it has to mount SRMs as the only possible weapon and I often take people by surprise with them. I certainly couldn't fit 4xLRM10s with art and my SRMs. Even so art costs for each launcher using up tonnage and raising their price.

Oh, I see what you mean. No argument here -- in fact, that's why I stopped trying to LRM boat with my A1 and switched to a C4. Two medium lasers ain't much, but I couldn't wrangle being both an LRM boat and an SRM brawler. I need to get back to that A1 some time...

Shadey99, on 21 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

From the person running them in an Assault mech, sure. Try something only a bit more than half that size.

I'll second that. Under 180m, I'm basically a 65 ton, 69kph Spider with a giant head and big, square arms.

Shadey99, on 21 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

And hope they don't carry AMS? Because if they do those lines of LRMS (from chain firing) is just going to eat up their AMS ammo. And that is still on top of the other team not having ECM, which is rare these days.

(I realize this wasn't aimed at me, but) Just having two groups (1x40 bundle and 4x10 chain) covers this for me, at least as far as AMS is concerned. With ECM, I usually hang back until the medium- and short- range fighting starts, at which point the ECM pack will start to break up, and your team will generally be close enough to start feeding you targets (often without even thinking about it). This, again, is in my meager ELO, I don't know how things are with more advanced/coordinated teams.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Nauht, on 20 July 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

The difference with a LRM boat is just to make sure the rock you're behind doesn't block the flight of your missiles.

There is no skill in fighting with LRMs - case in point, if you remove terrain obstacles and fought in a flat surface arena, do you have to actually aim with LRM's? Do you have to account for the target's speed, direction and lead fire? Can you tactically target a component to exploit a weakness of a mech?

No, you just have to face the enemy and wait for the red lock circle. Easy as pie.

Yeah because removing terrain makes skill pointless in and of itself. Do I have to account for the targets speed? Yes, I have to take into account if my Target Decay Module will keep the lock I have on long enough for my missiles to connect if they get behind cover.

If it does is the cover they're going behind going to block my missiles anyways?

If I mount Artemis will anything it brings to the table make my missiles more effective? What about TAG? Without knowing the map I'm dropping into my load out CAN be rendered pointless. Have I prepared for that by NOT boating LRM's?

I find boating pointless in and of itself because I have to rely on others to defend me if needed. Normally I go out with teammates, so that's not a problem. But if I'm solo, I feel boating is pointless.

By answering those questions BEFORE I even push that drop button implies that I'm using the skill most people see as not there in the first place.

Now once the UI 2.0 comes in and there's a map selection before the drop, I choose my battleground and my skill is used far more effectively. So any tweaks between now and then are not a big deal, I know the blade I use will be nice and sharp when that time comes. That goes for anyone who is effective at boating, not just LRM boats.