46 replies to this topic

[evilC]

Personally, I find the game is unplayable while tournaments are on - it brings about the absolute worst in people and encourages play-styles that are contradictory to the ethos of MWO.

Over the last day, I have seen a massive increase in the following kinds of behavior:

Ignoring friendlies getting attacked by lights because you do not get many points for lights.
(Literally been 50m behind a bunch of friendly mechs and in full view, and people run half way across the map to attack an assault rather than help out with the fight right in front of them)

Friendlies deliberately blocking a TAG to stop an LRM mech getting a lock.

ECM mechs not going to counter.

People getting ludicrously aggressive in the hope that they get lucky - dying isn't that much of a factor in score, as long as you do a bunch of damage.

People totally ignoring the map and chat - they do not care how the game goes for the team, just their damage score.

An increase (if that were even possible) in boating PPCs.

Edited by evilC, 23 June 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[PEEFsmash]

evilC, on 22 June 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

Personally, I find the game is unplayable while tournaments are on - it brings about the absolute worst in people and encourages play-styles that are contradictory to the ethos of MWO.

Over the last day, I have seen a massive increase in the following kinds of behavior:

Ignoring friendlies getting attacked by lights because you do not get many points for lights.
(Literally been 50m behind a bunch of friendly mechs and in full view, and people run half way across the map to attack an assault rather than help out with the fight right in front of them)

Friendlies deliberately blocking a TAG to stop an LRM mech getting a lock.

ECM mechs not going to counter.

People getting ludicrously aggressive in the hope that they get lucky - dying isn't that much of a factor in score, as long as you do a bunch of damage.

People totally ignoring the map and chat - they do not care how the game goes for the team, just their damage score.

An increase (if that were even possible) in boating PPCs.

You clearly have no idea how the tournament scoring works if you think people are ignoring lights because "you do not get many points for lights." You get just as many points for lights as you do assaults, 20 for a kill, 15 for an assist. The difference in damage done is negligible because you only get 1 single point per 30 damage. So killing a light while doing 100 damage is worth just over 23 points, whereas killing an assault while doing 150 damage to it is worth just over 25 points. (Hint: scores for the top leaderboard players are all 1800+ points.)

"Friendlies blocking a TAG to stop an LRM mech getting a lock." I'm not gonna lie, this is the most ridiculous thing I have read on the forums possibly ever. Its just a hilarious non issue, and I shouldn't even have to explain why. Nobody in the history of this game has said "im gonna block a friendly TAG so that he doesn't get increased firing grouping on his LRMs (it won't stop a lock btw).

You are boogeymanning people who try hard at this game. You are probably just attributing general problems with bad teams to this tournament as if bad teammates are a now-only problem.

The only thing that changes come tournament time is that good players play more, and they try really hard, not only for themselves but for their team (keep in mind it is impossible to get a good score in a game without winning the game and surviving).

[Torage]

I think tournaments make the game significantly better! people really step up their game and I've had some amazing matches this weekend!

Also I think you are confused how scoring works poster above me explained this nicely.

<---#1 dragon player

Edited by Torage, 22 June 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Soy]

dumb thread

[Inkarnus]

dumb post (above me)

Edited by Inkarnus, 22 June 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Soy]

why dont you ******* cry about it

[Deathlike]

evilC, on 22 June 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

Personally, I find the game is unplayable while tournaments are on - it brings about the absolute worst in people and encourages play-styles that are contradictory to the ethos of MWO.

No.. it simply accentuates all the meta to an really nasty extreme.

Quote

Over the last day, I have seen a massive increase in the following kinds of behavior:

Ignoring friendlies getting attacked by lights because you do not get many points for lights.
(Literally been 50m behind a bunch of friendly mechs and in full view, and people run half way across the map to attack an assault rather than help out with the fight right in front of them)

Killing lights is the same as killing an atlas in terms of scoring. No dice. Anyone who attempts to engage a light swarm w/o teh seismic wallhack (which is effectively a requirement) is not something I can help anyone with. Unless there's a reasonable blob within the vicinity.. you are TRULY ON YOUR OWN IF YOU DECIDE TO BE A RANBO.

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Friendlies deliberately blocking a TAG to stop an LRM mech getting a lock.

LRMs have never really been useful in tournies, hence, you are on your own on that.

Quote

ECM mechs not going to counter.

Do you realize most ECM mechs that play DON'T use it because they dunno why or how to do it? You must be your own ECM solution in the Tourney...

Quote

People getting ludicrously aggressive in the hope that they get lucky - dying isn't that much of a factor in score, as long as you do a bunch of damage.

That's also wrong... dying SCREWS with your score greatly (300 pt difference in a death vs being alive after a match). If anything, self-preservation is a lot more important.

Quote

People totally ignoring the map and chat - they do not care how the game goes for the team, just their damage score.

See, the irony is that kill-stealing is a lot more profitable than the damage score.. which is the irony in your statement.

Quote

An increase (if that were even possible) in boating PPCs.

See my first answer.

Pretty much every point you made is pretty much wrong and/or inaccurate. You would understand this better if you... PLAYED in the tourney. Being a participant changes your views, especially based on the scoring that's being done. There are certainly a crapload of problems that this tourney causes (not having its own queue for one), but ALL of the points you've brought up makes me wonder if you were actually trying to troll for a reaction.

[evilC]

Deathlike, on 22 June 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

No.. it simply accentuates all the meta to an really nasty extreme.



Killing lights is the same as killing an atlas in terms of scoring. No dice. Anyone who attempts to engage a light swarm w/o teh seismic wallhack (which is effectively a requirement) is not something I can help anyone with. Unless there's a reasonable blob within the vicinity.. you are TRULY ON YOUR OWN IF YOU DECIDE TO BE A RANBO.



LRMs have never really been useful in tournies, hence, you are on your own on that.



Do you realize most ECM mechs that play DON'T use it because they dunno why or how to do it? You must be your own ECM solution in the Tourney...



That's also wrong... dying SCREWS with your score greatly (300 pt difference in a death vs being alive after a match). If anything, self-preservation is a lot more important.



See, the irony is that kill-stealing is a lot more profitable than the damage score.. which is the irony in your statement.



See my first answer.

Pretty much every point you made is pretty much wrong and/or inaccurate. You would understand this better if you... PLAYED in the tourney. Being a participant changes your views, especially based on the scoring that's being done. There are certainly a crapload of problems that this tourney causes (not having its own queue for one), but ALL of the points you've brought up makes me wonder if you were actually trying to troll for a reaction.

Jeez man, what's with the bile and anger?
The vote is currently running at 10:9 against changes, so it clearly isn't that cut and dry.
I did play a bit in the tourney, when I went to bed fri night I was #25 in catapults.
Not played since and I am still in the top 100.

Plus, I asked one of the offenders "Why did you not help with the light?" and he said "Takes too long to kill and too little dmg value in tourney".

Finally, some of your statements seem to be wrong.

Kills × 20 + Kill Assist × 15 + (Damage Done – Team Damage) ÷ 30 + Wins × 20 + Loss × 10 + Survive × 20 + Dead × 10

So surviving only gets you 10 more points.
A kill gets you 20 pts
30 dmg gets you 1 pt
Killing an assault would garner more points than killing a light because you have to do more damage to it to kill it. It is also a lot slower, so you can easily pour in the damage unlike a light that you may have to chase half way across the map.
If you can get 300 dmg on a target in the process of killing it, you get 50% more points.

Edited by evilC, 22 June 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[Hellen Wheels]

Don't opt in to tourneys. Problem solved.

At least for me, it seems like I've had a lot more fun games these past two days, because (I think) I'm not seeing any tourney players.

Maybe I'm in the "non-elite" queue FINALLY.

[Gaan Cathal]

Hellen Wheels, on 22 June 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Don't opt in to tourneys. Problem solved.

At least for me, it seems like I've had a lot more fun games these past two days, because (I think) I'm not seeing any tourney players.

Maybe I'm in the "non-elite" queue FINALLY.

You do realise there's no separation of players?

[evilC]

Deathlike, on 22 June 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

You must be your own ECM solution in the Tourney...

Also, this is completely missing the point.
If you do not want to play in the tourney, you have no choice. That was the whole point of this post.
Besides, I don't really see what the point of the tourney is. It doesn't promote the game in a good light at all - it encourages the kind of gameplay that has no place in a team based tactical sim-esque game - if you don't play it like it's CoD with the cheesiest build you can come up with, you might as well not play on that weekend.

Hellen Wheels, on 22 June 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Don't opt in to tourneys. Problem solved.

Gaan Cathal, on 22 June 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

You do realise there's no separation of players?

I don't think the penny has quite dropped yet.

Edited by evilC, 22 June 2013 - 03:43 PM.

[Deathlike]

evilC, on 22 June 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Jeez man, what's with the bile and anger?
The vote is currently running at 10:9 against changes, so it clearly isn't that cut and dry.
I did play a bit in the tourney, when I went to bed fri night I was #25 in catapults.
Not played since and I am still in the top 100.

Do you really want to argue this? I'm annoyed at comments that make absolutely no sense.

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Plus, I asked one of the offenders "Why did you not help with the light?" and he said "Takes too long to kill and too little dmg value in tourney".

The thing about lights is that you expend a lot of time that could be spent killing something easier... usually something slow. I kill lights because they cap and they are usually going to cost you a win. So, with respect to the guy, it is his decision and I think it's not something that helps your team to win games (let alone succeed in the tourney).

Quote

Finally, some of your statements seem to be wrong.

Kills × 20 + Kill Assist × 15 + (Damage Done – Team Damage) ÷ 30 + Wins × 20 + Loss × 10 + Survive × 20 + Dead × 10

So surviving only gets you 10 more points.
A kill gets you 20 pts
30 dmg gets you 1 pt
Killing an assault would garner more points than killing a light because you have to do more damage to it to kill it. It is also a lot slower, so you can easily pour in the damage unlike a light that you may have to chase half way across the map.
If you can get 300 dmg on a target in the process of killing it, you get 50% more points.

I should be specific on what those 300 pts meant. These are points that WOULD HAVE TO BE MADE UP IN DAMAGE. So, if you look at the math, damage is the only thing that technically you have the most control over.. but also remember people used to harvest "damage" to increase their score. The difference between a kill and an assist is literally 150 pts of damage that you would have to make up AT MINIMUM.

The multiplier for Kills is 20 and the multiplier for Assists is 15. So, the difference in multipliers is 5. The damage modifier is 30.

5 (multiplier difference) * 30 (damage modifier) = 150 point damage difference between a kill and assist.

Let's translate that to a surviving/win vs dying/loss.

The multiplier for a Win is 20, and the multiplier for a Loss is 10. So, the difference is multipliers is 10. The damage modifier is 30.

10 (multiplier difference) * 30 (damage modifier) = 300

So you're wondering.. why does this matter? You're probably not going to deal such damage in game... so why bother looking at it?

The reason is that the scoring systems DEFINES exactly what happens for a person to succeed. With the current system as constituted, you must do the following things in the current order to succeed: Kill everything, anything you don't kill, you must "lightly tap", win, stay alive while winning, and THEN care about your damage totals.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 June 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[Zerberus]

The CoD Kiddies and shameless e-peeners can keep their tournament weekends, I simply don`t play during them because this is a team game and the tournament rules still promote gung-ho solo mech-wanking.

If there were a separation of the playerbase between tournament and non tournament players, I would gladly play, TBH I wsy actually looking forward to playing this weekend, but as it stands, Mechwarrior Tactics is what I`ve been doing, and will continue to do until the tournament is over and people start playing normally again.

Edited by Zerberus, 23 June 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[evilC]

Deathlike, on 22 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Do you really want to argue this? I'm annoyed at comments that make absolutely no sense.

Hyperbolic much?

Deathlike, on 22 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

The multiplier for Kills is 20 and the multiplier for Assists is 15. So, the difference in multipliers is 5. The damage modifier is 30.

5 (multiplier difference) * 30 (damage modifier) = 150 point damage difference between a kill and assist.

Let's translate that to a surviving/win vs dying/loss.

The multiplier for a Win is 20, and the multiplier for a Loss is 10. So, the difference is multipliers is 10. The damage modifier is 30.

10 (multiplier difference) * 30 (damage modifier) = 300

So you're wondering.. why does this matter? You're probably not going to deal such damage in game... so why bother looking at it?

The reason is that the scoring systems DEFINES exactly what happens for a person to succeed. With the current system as constituted, you must do the following things in the current order to succeed: Kill everything, anything you don't kill, you must "lightly tap", win, stay alive while winning, and THEN care about your damage totals.

Where in the formula does it say it is a multiplier?

The formula is:

Kills × 20 + Kill Assist × 15 + (Damage Done – Team Damage) ÷ 30 + Wins × 20 + Loss × 10 + Survive × 20 + Dead × 10

So, lets say you got 4 kills, 4 assists and 500 dmg per match with no team damage with 10 wins, 0 losses.

Now here are the equations - first where you survived every match:

(4 x 20) + (4 x 15) + (((500 * 10) - 0) / 30) + (10 x 20) + (0 x 10) + (10 x 20) + (0 x 10)
80 + 70 + 166 + 200 + 0 + 200 + 0 = 716

Now where you die every match:
(4 x 20) + (4 x 15) + (((500 * 10) - 0) / 30) + (10 x 20) + (0 x 10) + (0 x 20) + (10 x 10)
80 + 70 + 166 + 200 + 0 + 0 + 100 = 616

So 100pts difference - about 16%. Not a huge amount.
Stripping away the Death / Live part of the equation:
Survive × 20 + Dead × 10
It is abundantly clear that no matter your score, the max difference between all dying and all living is 100pts.


Seeing as the top scores are ~1,900 pts we can deduce that living or dying is about 5% of their score - pretty insignificant.

[evilC]

Vote is currently at 14:13 in favour of changes.

And note that this thread is in the tournaments subforum. The general PUGing public probably do not read this thread, so this is probably not even the opinion of the people being affected, but more likely the opinion of people who actually played in or are interested in the tournament.

I suspect that if you asked the average punter, the swing would be even more in favor of changes.

[evilC]

Separate Queues option added to poll - pls feel free to change your vote.

[Sug]

How about instead of your 10 Best Games it takes your Next 10 Games? Just get it done and over.

[Soy]

Zerberus, on 23 June 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Mechwarrior Tactics is what I`ve been doing

How is it? Thinkin about playin it, MWO is pretty stagnant atm.

[norhymes]

Soy, on 23 June 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

How is it? Thinkin about playin it, MWO is pretty stagnant atm.

Worth checking out, but doesn't have much grab.

Re: OP

Yes, I agree. Tourney weekends are strangely terrible and unenjoyable. I'd much rather see team-based tournaments.

[Deathlike]

evilC, on 23 June 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Hyperbolic much?

Sometimes, but in this case, no.

Quote

Where in the formula does it say it is a multiplier?

Do I even have to explain how math works? Because, I know PGI cannot.

Quote

The formula is:

Kills × 20 + Kill Assist × 15 + (Damage Done – Team Damage) ÷ 30 + Wins × 20 + Loss × 10 + Survive × 20 + Dead × 10

So, lets say you got 4 kills, 4 assists and 500 dmg per match with no team damage with 10 wins, 0 losses.

Now here are the equations - first where you survived every match:

(4 x 20) + (4 x 15) + (((500 * 10) - 0) / 30) + (10 x 20) + (0 x 10) + (10 x 20) + (0 x 10)
80 + 70 + 166 + 200 + 0 + 200 + 0 = 716

Now where you die every match:
(4 x 20) + (4 x 15) + (((500 * 10) - 0) / 30) + (10 x 20) + (0 x 10) + (0 x 20) + (10 x 10)
80 + 70 + 166 + 200 + 0 + 0 + 100 = 616

So 100pts difference - about 16%. Not a huge amount.
Stripping away the Death / Live part of the equation:
Survive × 20 + Dead × 10
It is abundantly clear that no matter your score, the max difference between all dying and all living is 100pts.


Seeing as the top scores are ~1,900 pts we can deduce that living or dying is about 5% of their score - pretty insignificant.

Your MATH IS WRONG. PGI WOULD BE PROUD. This is the accumulation of the 10 best matches. Each match at best would have to accomplish 200 points worth per match (assuming you want 2000 pts total thru 10 matches).

Here's a common match in a very nice winning scenario.

4 kills * 20 + 4 assists * 15 + 300 damage / 30 + 1 * 20 Win + 1 * 20 Survive =
80 + 60 + 10 + 20 + 20 = 190!!!

The difference between 10 points IS life and death in a tourney. AS of this post I'm TIED with another player, so if it recorded a good game while I died, I'm stuck to it. 10 pts unfortunately IS the difference. Heck, I could've lost AND survived the match.. which is equally painful.

See how this works? Please, do better math, since I don't even want to know how you do your taxes.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 June 2013 - 01:12 PM.