68 replies to this topic

[Bors Mistral]

Two things:
1. Reduce projectile speed a bit.
2. Give it charge up time of half a second.

Now, before you start screaming on the second point, please think about it first. The firing delay we had earlier in beta was annoying, a great deal of that coming from it being random. Having a fixed charge-up time will give PPCs a quirk that differentiates them from other weapons, still keeps them deadly, but raises a bit the skill necessary for their effective use and gives the opponent a chance to maneuver at least a little.

[Penn Ace]

When a mech can fire 3 or more ppc and ppc like weapons and can strip 74 points of armour in one shot (jager DD) there is something wrong. I have watched multiple times as people have one shot me with 3 gauss/ppc/lg lasers. On the other hand you can't touch a spider with anything. I can't understand why they haven't fixed the hit boxes on the spider. It is awful.

[Koniving]

VanillaG, on 22 July 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

If you want to reduce the amount of pinpoint damage a PPC can do, turn it into a beam weapon like all other energy weapons. If you want to do pinpoint damage, use a ballistic and deal with all of the downsides of ballistics. The PPC gets the benefit of up front damage but it is lighter, smaller, uses no ammo, and has the fastest projectile speed.

The reason that PPC were bad in closed beta had to do with the fact that ballistics had poor hit detection and they had the highest heat generated of any ballistic style weapon. Every miss generated a lot heat and with beam weapons allowing you to get at least some damage done, people went with the other energy weapons.

All very true. And you could. But then it'd be a laser. An alternative, is since the entire trail is supposed to be the PPC, is to require the entire trail to travel and do damage. Kind of like a fire and forget laser, that only does damage where the trail touches. But since the trail moves so fast I don't see how this would be much different than it is now.

Though splash mechanic is actually lore friendly when you consider Snub-nosed PPCs, which due to their shorter barrels could not focus the energy as precisely, creating a shotgun-like splash in the form of a gigantic growing ball with a trail of energy behind it. The larger it got, the less damage it actually produced (but the wider it got spread to all things it touched).

-------

Anyway, I got some things to do so I'm slipping away for a bit.

[zorak ramone]

It seems that increasing PPC heat is the most popular option, but it's also the wrong option.

Increasing PPC heat will do nothing but shift the balance back to GR-centric high alpha builds. Anyone who remembers the days of closed beta before DHS were added and when PPC heat was 10 knows this to be true. The moment an assault mech is added that can carry 2xGR and at least one PPC, you'll see that PPC heat was never the issue.

Increasing PPC heat treats a symptom (high damage PPC/GR alphas) without dealing with the core underlying problem (no limits on the amount of damage that can be applied to a single panel in a single trigger pull). The solution is a system that somehow limits the amount of damage that can be applied accurately in a single trigger pull. Everything else is just dancing around the issue.

[Unbound Inferno]

zorak ramone, on 22 July 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

It seems that increasing PPC heat is the most popular option, but it's also the wrong option.

Increasing PPC heat will do nothing but shift the balance back to GR-centric high alpha builds. Anyone who remembers the days of closed beta before DHS were added and when PPC heat was 10 knows this to be true. The moment an assault mech is added that can carry 2xGR and at least one PPC, you'll see that PPC heat was never the issue.

I think you are mistaken on that point. nobody is complaining on the glass cannon these days, its enough of a risk with little reward so its pretty balanced.

You example of 2 GR and 1 PPC only shows taht raising heat will bring it down - because how many mechs will be around that can wield that?

Not that many, and odds are - they'll be pretty easy to handle considering what sizes they'll have to be.

Its a fine trade, and seems to be a good one. NOT returning the heat where it should be would be the bigger mistake.

[zorak ramone]

Unbound Inferno, on 22 July 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

I think you are mistaken on that point. nobody is complaining on the glass cannon these days, its enough of a risk with little reward so its pretty balanced.

You example of 2 GR and 1 PPC only shows taht raising heat will bring it down - because how many mechs will be around that can wield that?

Not that many, and odds are - they'll be pretty easy to handle considering what sizes they'll have to be.

Its a fine trade, and seems to be a good one. NOT returning the heat where it should be would be the bigger mistake.

Two things:

One, when I say "gauss centric", I'm including GR/2xPPC configs as well. The main point will be that GRs will become necessities, and the more GRs the better. Currently, the 2xERPPC/2xPPC Stalker functions quite nicely. Noone complains about the "glass cannon" (the "glass" part is highly overstated) because there are options in that range bracket. Jack up heat on the PPC/ERPPC, and that's no longer true.

Two, the 2xGR assault is a demonstration of why heat isn't the issue. The issue is the level of pinpoint damage you can do in a single trigger pull. Also, 2xGR mechs (and mechs that could carry 2xGR given any sort of reasonable customization system) are not rare at all in CBT. The devs WILL run into one of these eventually. Some examples:

Annihilator
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Annihilator
Capable of 4xGR or 3xGR/PPC. Its 100 tons, so its got the tonnage to carry it. Never mind the slow stock speed since engines can be upgraded. This one is also capable of 4xUAC5/4xML. Lol?

Thunderhawk
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunder_Hawk
Carries 3xGR in stock and potentially capable of 3xGR/2xPPC. Another 100 tonner as well

King Crab
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/King_Crab
Another 100 tonner. Carries 2xAC20 in stock, with tonnage to spare. Depending on where they put the stock LL, this thing could also do 2xGR/PPC. The big advantage this guy has would be his very low profile.

Gunslinger
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gunslinger
An 85 tonner that can carry 2xGR/2xPPC based on stock hardpoints. Other than looking ridiculous, what's special about it. Well, it JUMPS and has ECM!

Mauler
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauler
Another 2xGR/2xPPC mech in a 90 ton package. This one would also be capable of 4xUAC5.

Devastator
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Devastator
Another 2xGR/2xPPC (in stock!) mech in a 100 ton package.

======

EDIT: if the gunslinger was added, it would be the only mech used by anyone, EVER.

Edited by zorak ramone, 22 July 2013 - 11:40 AM.

[Jman5]

I would decrease the component hitpoints of the ER PPC from 10 to 5. This would make it more fragile against most brawler weapons without impacting it's health vs the precision damage sniper weapons.

[BillyM]

What I don't necessarily want:

+3 heat!
... or -600m/s projectile speed
... or -5hp weapon hitpoints

What I would like to see:

+1 heat next patch
-300m/s the following patch (if still seen en-mass)
-3hp the following patch after (if still seen en-mass)
+1 heat the following patch after that

I waited this long, I can wait a bit more, so long as changes are made gradually and we don't pendulum the weapon like we have with all other balance adjustments. Slow and steady, but lets keep working towards it.\

--billyM

--billyM

[Joseph Mallan]

zorak ramone, on 22 July 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Two things:

One, when I say "gauss centric", I'm including GR/2xPPC configs as well. The main point will be that GRs will become necessities, and the more GRs the better. Currently, the 2xERPPC/2xPPC Stalker functions quite nicely. Noone complains about the "glass cannon" (the "glass" part is highly overstated) because there are options in that range bracket. Jack up heat on the PPC/ERPPC, and that's no longer true.

Two, the 2xGR assault is a demonstration of why heat isn't the issue. The issue is the level of pinpoint damage you can do in a single trigger pull. Also, 2xGR mechs (and mechs that could carry 2xGR given any sort of reasonable customization system) are not rare at all in CBT. The devs WILL run into one of these eventually. Some examples:

Annihilator
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Annihilator
Capable of 4xGR or 3xGR/PPC. Its 100 tons, so its got the tonnage to carry it. Never mind the slow stock speed since engines can be upgraded. This one is also capable of 4xUAC5/4xML. Lol?

Thunderhawk
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunder_Hawk
Carries 3xGR in stock and potentially capable of 3xGR/2xPPC. Another 100 tonner as well

King Crab
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/King_Crab
Another 100 tonner. Carries 2xAC20 in stock, with tonnage to spare. Depending on where they put the stock LL, this thing could also do 2xGR/PPC. The big advantage this guy has would be his very low profile.

Gunslinger
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gunslinger
An 85 tonner that can carry 2xGR/2xPPC based on stock hardpoints. Other than looking ridiculous, what's special about it. Well, it JUMPS and has ECM!

Mauler
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauler
Another 2xGR/2xPPC mech in a 90 ton package. This one would also be capable of 4xUAC5.

Devastator
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Devastator
Another 2xGR/2xPPC (in stock!) mech in a 100 ton package.

======

EDIT: if the gunslinger was added, it would be the only mech used by anyone, EVER.

I would take a Thunder Hawk, Devastator, King Crab or Mauler over a Gunslinger... unless they render it to die for.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 July 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

I would take a Thunder Hawk, Devastator, King Crab or Mauler over a Gunslinger... unless they render it to die for.

As the Gunslinger closes with the enemy it is able to bring its four Defiance B3M Medium Lasers and a Defiance A5L Small Laser that help to make up for the ineffectiveness of the Gauss Rifles at extremely short ranges. (I love this part cause apparently PGI never got/refused to read the memo on AC minimum range)

Edited by Trauglodyte, 22 July 2013 - 05:58 PM.

[skullman86]

PPCs aren't the problem. That is to say they aren't the only things in this game that are broken. There are a ton of factors involved that make PPCs (gauss and AC/20s as well) very, VERY attractive weapons. They use table top stats for weight and crits, but not heat, and I don't think the devs thought about the exploitation of hardpoints when they set up the system (or they did and this is what they wanted *shudder*).

The slow projectile speeds, the heat, and a couple other technical faults made this weapon pretty tricky if not total garbage back in closed beta. Unfortunately, now it that functions properly, it is essentially an AC/10 with half the weight/crits, and it fits into the most common hardpoint slot in the game.

Three steps to success

STEP 1: Increase base heat (back to table top values of 10 and 15 for a start)

STEP 2: Hardpoint sizes

STEP 3: Convergence changes

If base heat doesn't stop the ridiculous loadouts, hardpoint sizes will. If, for whatever reason, people are still dealing damage too quickly with restricted loadouts, a change to convergence will be the killing blow.

Edited by skullman86, 22 July 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Trauglodyte, on 22 July 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

As the Gunslinger closes with the enemy it is able to bring its four Defiance B3M Medium Lasers and a Defiance A5L Small Laser that help to make up for the ineffectiveness of the Gauss Rifles at extremely short ranges. (I love this part cause apparently PGI never got/refused to read the memo on AC minimum range)

I will not complain for or against minimum ballistic ranges. I have played TT with and without them, they are not to much of an impact in my eyes.


Sorry... Bad pun!

skullman86, on 22 July 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

PPCs aren't the problem. That is to say they aren't the only things in this game that are broken. There are a ton of factors involved that make PPCs (gauss and AC/20s as well) very, VERY attractive weapons. They use table top stats for weight and crits, but not heat, and I don't think the devs thought about the exploitation of hardpoints when they set up the system (or they did and this is what they wanted *shudder*).

The slow projectile speeds, the heat, and a couple other technical faults made this weapon pretty tricky if not total garbage back in closed beta. Unfortunately, now it that functions properly, it is essentially an AC/10 with half the weight/crits, and it fits into the most common hardpoint slot in the game.

Three steps to success

STEP 1: Increase base heat (back to table top values of 10 and 15 for a start)

STEP 2: Hardpoint sizes

STEP 3: Convergence changes

If base heat doesn't stop the ridiculous loadouts, hardpoint sizes will. If, for whatever reason, people are still dealing damage too quickly with restricted loadouts, a change to convergence will be the killing blow.

Gauss heat is 1 on TT, AC20 is a different thing.

[Strum Wealh]

IMO, increasing the heat generation of both standard PPCs and ER-PPCs back to their normal values (10 heat/shot for the former, and 15 heat/shot for the latter) would be ideal.

[MasterErrant]

there is absolutely nothing wrong with PPCs except the heat nerf.

what is wrong is the lack of a balanceing heat system...and it's always been about that. if anything the "Projectile speed nerf" for an energy wepon that xhould propagate at most of the speed of light. is a mindlessly stupid and arbitrary nerf. that doesn't actually do anything but buff longer ranged ACs

[Antony Weiner]

Make weapon hardpoints limited to a certain amount of slots that would be custom for every particular chassis (i.e. "holy f*ck, no more boating" or "<fix all balance> button") .

Edited by Antony Weiner, 22 July 2013 - 06:28 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

+1 for Frank's Red Hot!

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Your poll should be a check box poll rather than a single-choice radio button poll.

I voted Other, because I have several fixes I'd like to see.

1 - Bump up PPC heat by 1 and ERPPC heat by 1.5 or 2.

2 - Change projectile velocities like so: Gauss stays at 1200 m/s, PPC at 1500 m/s (currently it's 2000), and ERPPC at 1800 m/s (currently it's 2000).

3 - Change PPCs and ERPPCs to a sort of lightning gun effect, where it does half damage (5 inside optimum range) on-hit, then jumps to an adjacent location to do 3, and then jumps again to another adjacent location to do the final 2 damage. This would be accompanied by some very nifty electrical arcing graphics. It'd retain much of the pin-point, precision damage of the current PPC while spreading damage around without messing with convergence, cone of fire, splash damage, or any other wonky mechanics.

4 - Add "soft" heat effects that scale as you climb the heat gauge. In other words, as you start to run hotter, your top speed, turn/twist/arm reflex rates, and your accuracy suffer. The hotter you get, the more those things are affected. This would have innumerable benefits, not least of which would be injecting a lot more skill into heat management (rather than a binary "over 100% or not over 100%" like we have now).

[Renthrak]

Convergence AND increase PPC heat from 8 to 9.

[Sable]

I think PPC heat is in an acceptable range right now although possibly increasing it by 1 would be fine. The PPC needs a difficulty to use change such as a slower moving projectile in order to give it a proper negative vs its positives as a weapon choice.

What makes it so appealing right now is that its
1 - long range
2 - up front damage
3 - acceptable heat management
4 - barely noticeable travel speed
5 - for the convergence lovers - not having to lead the target you can put multiple ppcs in one spot at once.

what makes PPCs unappealing
1 - heat
2 - and now the frightful heat scaling.

By making PPCs travel slower they would take away 2 postives and add 1 negative. The two positives would be the super fast travel speed, and the pinpoint convergence issue. having to lead targets at extreme ranges would make alpha striking spread the ppc shots all over the mech instead of focused in one spot. It would change the PPC into medium range for practical use and actually give brawls with high mobility (medium mechs) a chance to get into position without being blown up immediately

[Magicbullet141]

All your ideas are COMPLETELY WRONG
We DON'T need more "special rules" that remove this game further from the table top and battletech in general!!!

PPC need to be reset to their original Heat, the TT heat

ppc= 10
erppc=15

"The best solution to problems is usually the easiest one"
-GLaDOS

Edited by Magicbullet141, 22 July 2013 - 10:40 PM.