35 replies to this topic

[Zaptruder]

I think if we had every mech carrying ECM, that would've been hilarious. It would've been like seismic, except more complex.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Unbound Inferno, on 22 July 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Engine size is another problem actually...

As I understand Lights got restricted to limit max speed because the game can't handle it, but I don't think any other chassis got reduced engine sizes as well.

This leaves a disproportionate mess between speeds - why Heavies and Assaults can chase down Mediums for example.

But hey, PGI wanted it that way...

People always forget things when it is convenient for them to do so.

In pure battletech, Inner Sphere mechs can't be modified at all. Therefore the basic Jenner was always 119 kph and only had 64 armor, not the 152 kph and 200+ armor it can have now.

Additionally, there are no Heavies or Assaults that can run 152 kph. The absolute fastest is the Quickdraw that with Speedtweak can go around 106 kph which is significantly slower than 152 kph and absolutely can not keep up with a fast light mech.

As far as the construction ruleset, that was there as a side ruleset so people could design their own mechs, not modify existing IS mechs. Modifying existing mechs was the whole point of variants and all were factory modifications.

[One Medic Army]

Viktor Drake, on 22 July 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

People always forget things when it is convenient for them to do so.

In pure battletech, Inner Sphere mechs can't be modified at all. Therefore the basic Jenner was always 119 kph and only had 64 armor, not the 152 kph and 200+ armor it can have now.

Additionally, there are no Heavies or Assaults that can run 152 kph. The absolute fastest is the Quickdraw that with Speedtweak can go around 106 kph which is significantly slower than 152 kph and absolutely can not keep up with a fast light mech.

As far as the construction ruleset, that was there as a side ruleset so people could design their own mechs, not modify existing IS mechs. Modifying existing mechs was the whole point of variants and all were factory modifications.

It's also there for actual campaigns, since there are rules for refitting in the field, in fact the refit rules specify which refits can be done without a factory. This is part of the reason there are so many FerroFibrous mechs: Ferro is a field refit.

Heck, there are several weapons systems which are more-or-less swappable with one another.

[MasterErrant]

Unbound Inferno, on 22 July 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Engine size is another problem actually...

As I understand Lights got restricted to limit max speed because the game can't handle it, but I don't think any other chassis got reduced engine sizes as well.

This leaves a disproportionate mess between speeds - why Heavies and Assaults can chase down Mediums for example.

But hey, PGI wanted it that way...

actually all mechs got a nerf here. I greaa with the incremental speed thing. but many mechs can't even go up by one factor in engine size. ie an atlas running a 400/400xl. an awsome running a 320 ETC.
that's what I was referring to.

[MasterErrant]

One Medic Army, on 22 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

It's also there for actual campaigns, since there are rules for refitting in the field, in fact the refit rules specify which refits can be done without a factory. This is part of the reason there are so many FerroFibrous mechs: Ferro is a field refit.

Heck, there are several weapons systems which are more-or-less swappable with one another.

no they can be modified. but you gain quirks and instbilities. the only mos you can make witout a facory rebuild (Extremely hard tyo do in 3025) it tweakinf ammo HS and weapon types without changing a lot of big items. changingh a shadowhawks AC% to a PPC or LL for instance.

[One Medic Army]

MasterErrant, on 22 July 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

no they can be modified. but you gain quirks and instbilities. the only mos you can make witout a facory rebuild (Extremely hard tyo do in 3025) it tweakinf ammo HS and weapon types without changing a lot of big items. changingh a shadowhawks AC% to a PPC or LL for instance.

That's more or less what I was referring to.
Actually, the easiest I'm aware of is swapping SRMs to LRMs of equal weight, or vice versa.

Edited by One Medic Army, 22 July 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Asakara]

Unbound Inferno, on 22 July 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

• JR7-K - The JR7-K adds a higher degree of survivability to the Jenner by upgrading the armor to Ferro-Fibrous, while removing a half ton of the armor. This provides virtually the same armor protection while adding CASE to the SRM-4 ammunition. BV (1.0) = 694, BV (2.0) = 889^[12]

Sorry, not in the loadout.

• JR10-X - A Experimental variant of the Jenner developed during the Jihad. It was a test-bed chassis for LAW on New Samarkand in 3072. Using the JR7-K as its base, with extensive revisions. Its internal structure was changed for a Composite Internal Structure. Its engine changed out for a 245 Rated XL Engine, which helps maintain the Jenner's original speed. The designer moved the forward jutting cockpit to a Torso Mounted Cockpit. Its missile weaponry was completely dropped in favor of increasing the 'Mechs medium laser armament up to six Medium Lasers. Jump Jets increased from base module to seven. For the 'Mechs protection, it has an Angel ECM and its hull has been encased with seven tons of Light Ferro-Fibrous Armor. For its stealth capacities, the 'mech has been given an Experimental Null-Signature System. Only seven of these 'Mechs were known to have been built. BV (1.0) = ???, BV (2.0) = 1,452^[13]

This one has an ECM, but not one that exists in this timeframe.

If we follow lore then we must remove ECM from the Commando and Cicada as no variant of either of those mechs ever had ECM.

Better remove it from the Atlas too because, like the Jenner a future variant had it (the K2), but not the D-DC.

[Coralld]

I will say the same thing I told you in your last thread about giving a Jenner ECM, regardless if its the K or not. Giving a Jenner of any kind ECM would make the Raven 3L and all other lights useless.

Thus why I say...

[Dart Nimrod]

ECM Jenner? Why not? I think every, or almost every scout mech should have an ECM variant. Maybe I'm wrong. But Stalker with ECM is a bad idea, at least here in MWO, because LRM D-DCs are terrible enough... imagine what kind of nightmare could become ECM Stalker with four 15s or even two 15s and two 20s!

[Unbound Inferno]

Viktor Drake, on 22 July 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

People always forget things when it is convenient for them to do so.

In pure battletech, Inner Sphere mechs can't be modified at all. Therefore the basic Jenner was always 119 kph and only had 64 armor, not the 152 kph and 200+ armor it can have now.

Additionally, there are no Heavies or Assaults that can run 152 kph. The absolute fastest is the Quickdraw that with Speedtweak can go around 106 kph which is significantly slower than 152 kph and absolutely can not keep up with a fast light mech.

As far as the construction ruleset, that was there as a side ruleset so people could design their own mechs, not modify existing IS mechs. Modifying existing mechs was the whole point of variants and all were factory modifications.

True, but what's the fun in stock with the heat system so borked that most of them can't fire their lasers well?

[Joseph Mallan]

I don't know if its the heat system that's borked or the cyclic rates of the weapons.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Back when ECM was first introduced, PGI wanted to give it to the D. This was of course a bad idea, and the obvious solution was to switch to the K. Instead, they decided to skip the Jenner entirely.

The K is the weakest Jenner. It has fewer hard points than either of the others, and only has an advantage in terms of module slots. The D has more missiles, and the F has more lasers, and the K just doesn't do anything as well as either of the other two. It doesn't even have more tubes in its missile slot, which would make it a better SRM6 platform than the D.

It's also the most technologically advanced stock Jenner, packing FF armor. It's supposed to be a newer variant, and its increased module slots reflect this.

Between the weaker hard points and the more modern technology base, it is the obvious candidate for ECM among the Jenners.

However, many people object to Jenners getting ECM with the belief that the Jenner is so much better than other lights already that it doesn't need it. I disagree, but I can see where those people are coming from. Still, if you see a Jenner it's almost never a K, unless somebody is trying to level it up so they can unlock Elite on their Ds and Fs. Giving it ECM would make it far more likely to be chosen than it is now, and would give it a real place in the Jenner lineup.

[Nutlink]

It would have been awesome if the only ECM capable mechs were the ones that had it stock. As of right now I think that would only be the Raven, but it would have definitely been a lot more interesting than having it appear on all sorts of mechs like it does now. They still need to fix the ECM overall though....

[Jman5]

I voted no.

I think the lights are actually in a good state with regards to varying roles. The jenner wears the daddy pants and can basically edge out the other lights in combat. The Raven is the information warfare specialist you bring for ecm and extra module slots. The Spider is the annoying one who keeps the enemy off balance. And the commando is the hard-mode light for people who want a challenge.

[Slaytronic]

Unbound Inferno, on 22 July 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

That's fine. Gimme my Catapult with it, and JJs - and all the missiles I can carry... with a TAG.

and it would still be a ****** missile boat lol

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Giving ECM to more mechs would be a lot easier for people to stomach if ECM weren't part of a system of interlocking hard counters, but rather one of many soft counters.

In other words, don't make ECM shut down LRM and eliminate targeting altogether. Rather, make it cause intermittent target loss, have it inhibit (but not eliminate) lock-ons, and maybe even have it cause phantom signatures to appear on the radar that enemies would have to sort through to find real targets.

Then BAP, TAG, Artemis IV, etc., can all interact with ECM without any of them being a hard counter to each other. It'd promote build variety, it'd allow for different electronics and weapons upgrades to have different purposes rather than having lots of redundancy, and it'd remove the extremely harmful hard counter of ECM vs lock-on weapons, and of TAG/BAP vs ECM.

If this change went through, not only would people be more receptive to the JR7-K getting ECM, it'd be possible for every mech to gain the option of mounting it without breaking the game or making LRMs and SSRMs useless.