Whereas: Seismic is ridiculous, it takes all the fear and anticipation out of the game, and it also singlehandedly killed light/med raiding against anyone who has played more than 50 games,
Whereas: I hear you're planning to nerf it anyway,
Be it sugggested: Make seismic detection ranges depend on mech weight and speed, and possibly speed of the seismic-equipped mech.
Discussion:
I don't think 2/400m for the outer detection ring is too far, for large mechs. You could make it tactically relevant (and even, dare I say, awesome) with a few weight- and speed-dependent tweaks.
On a non-meta-gaming note, my understanding of the technology is that it's based on sensing ground tremors. Big things make bigger tremors. Fast things make bigger tremors (higher acceleration with each step). Tremors created by the seismic-equipped mech probably confuse the signal and should make it more difficult to filter out enemy tremors.
Keep the base detection ranges (BDR) of 2/400, but modify them as follows:
BDR * (Mech weight/100) * (Throttle percentage of enemy mech)
Or, if you wanted to make the coding even simpler, make it:
BDR * (.25 for lights, .50 for meds, .75 for heavies, 1.0 for assaults) * (Throttle percentage)
If you also think that seismic-equipped mech feedback damping should be incorporated, increase the radius/fuzziness of the circle, based again on the detecting mech's weight and speed (an Atlas at full speed knows there's something thataway, but not what or where).
Think about how much more tactically sweet this would make seismic. It would add a whole layer of complexity to the game, based on when you stop, when you go slow, etc. It would re-open the ability to actually move to flank and surprise people, but without fully nerfing the seismic sensor that we've all shelled out 15,000 GXP and 6,000,000 Cbills for.
Anyone else have any ideas on how to make this better?


How To Make Seismic Tactically Awesome
Started by PhaedrusV, Jul 23 2013 09:06 AM
6 replies to this topic
#1
Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:06 AM
#2
Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:00 AM
The problem I have with this sensor as it currently works is two fold.
1. It should only work when you are stationary. How the heck are you supposed to sense vibrations in the ground when you are running so fast in a light mech that both of your feet aren't touching the ground in the middle of the stride??? Is this magic? No. In order for your computer to make sense of things it needs to not be competing with other background noise ...which means you need to be planted.
2. Your computer can't possibly know the tonnage of what it is detecting. So ... How do you tell if that thud you felt was a 20 ton mech about 50m away vs a 100 ton mech 300m away? You can't know. As a result you CANT know the exact position of the impact. You can only know the DIRECTION it is from you. Bottom line. Detected targets should not show their exact position on the map ... You should get a bearing line going from your location out in the direction to the target(s).
1. It should only work when you are stationary. How the heck are you supposed to sense vibrations in the ground when you are running so fast in a light mech that both of your feet aren't touching the ground in the middle of the stride??? Is this magic? No. In order for your computer to make sense of things it needs to not be competing with other background noise ...which means you need to be planted.
2. Your computer can't possibly know the tonnage of what it is detecting. So ... How do you tell if that thud you felt was a 20 ton mech about 50m away vs a 100 ton mech 300m away? You can't know. As a result you CANT know the exact position of the impact. You can only know the DIRECTION it is from you. Bottom line. Detected targets should not show their exact position on the map ... You should get a bearing line going from your location out in the direction to the target(s).
#3
Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:54 PM
I figure it only degrades your own equipment to be moving, because they can just work it like noise cancelling. Based on what it knows your mech is outputting, it just counters that signal and reads everything else. They also already have technology that can read sound waves off of the vibrations in a window pane with a laser, so not being in contact with the ground shouldn't be a factor. For the same reason, localizing of targets makes sense, because you can read the waves as they propagate out, at a distance.
#4
Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:05 PM
Because my thoughts on this probably aren't going to change:
In regards to the OP:
Why should assaults get the shaft? Do you know how hard it is to get around someone unnoticed in an Awesome? They need to make Seismic an active ability / consumable with limited use or some downside, or they need to burn it to the ******* ground.
I'll agree with the throttle part, but I think it's too fundamentally broken to save with a couple minor tweaks.
Homeless Bill, on 18 July 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:
As I've stated before, I just don't think it should be in MWO. Flanking is hard enough, you can hear the rumble of footsteps when you're standing still (it used to take skill to wallhack =P), and it does nothing good for the game. I've thought about the concept and how to balance it, but I simply see no positive benefit to gameplay by leaving it in.
It's basically an anti-tactics module. **** Seismic.
It's basically an anti-tactics module. **** Seismic.
In regards to the OP:
Why should assaults get the shaft? Do you know how hard it is to get around someone unnoticed in an Awesome? They need to make Seismic an active ability / consumable with limited use or some downside, or they need to burn it to the ******* ground.
I'll agree with the throttle part, but I think it's too fundamentally broken to save with a couple minor tweaks.
#5
Posted 23 July 2013 - 04:51 PM
topgun505, on 23 July 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:
The problem I have with this sensor as it currently works is two fold.
1. It should only work when you are stationary. How the heck are you supposed to sense vibrations in the ground when you are running so fast in a light mech that both of your feet aren't touching the ground in the middle of the stride??? Is this magic? No. In order for your computer to make sense of things it needs to not be competing with other background noise ...which means you need to be planted.
2. Your computer can't possibly know the tonnage of what it is detecting. So ... How do you tell if that thud you felt was a 20 ton mech about 50m away vs a 100 ton mech 300m away? You can't know. As a result you CANT know the exact position of the impact. You can only know the DIRECTION it is from you. Bottom line. Detected targets should not show their exact position on the map ... You should get a bearing line going from your location out in the direction to the target(s).
1. It should only work when you are stationary. How the heck are you supposed to sense vibrations in the ground when you are running so fast in a light mech that both of your feet aren't touching the ground in the middle of the stride??? Is this magic? No. In order for your computer to make sense of things it needs to not be competing with other background noise ...which means you need to be planted.
2. Your computer can't possibly know the tonnage of what it is detecting. So ... How do you tell if that thud you felt was a 20 ton mech about 50m away vs a 100 ton mech 300m away? You can't know. As a result you CANT know the exact position of the impact. You can only know the DIRECTION it is from you. Bottom line. Detected targets should not show their exact position on the map ... You should get a bearing line going from your location out in the direction to the target(s).
While these seem like valid points, the fact is we already have technology that can tell the distance and relative magnitude of seismic events based on many different factors. But that aside, there are a lot of ways to explain (fluff-wise) how a Seismic Sensor module would work on a mech...especially in 3050.
For example, perhaps it launches pea-sized seismic-sensitive transponders in intervals all around the battlefield that rely seismic activity in the area once they settle on the ground. But since the signal the transponders transmit is fixed to to the Seismic Sensor they belong to, it can only be received by the mech that has it installed and cannot be broadcast directly.
#6
Posted 23 July 2013 - 08:47 PM
Cherry Darling, on 23 July 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:
For example, perhaps it launches pea-sized seismic-sensitive transponders in intervals all around the battlefield that rely seismic activity in the area once they settle on the ground. But since the signal the transponders transmit is fixed to to the Seismic Sensor they belong to, it can only be received by the mech that has it installed and cannot be broadcast directly.
I like this sort of idea.
Make the seismic module a X charge drop that puts a sensor on the ground that relays the data, but to all mechs. Gives a good job for scouts (drop sensors at chokepoints etc.). Have ECM jam transmissions from each sensor if they are inside 180m (so you would see something coming but then the signal would drop off). Would make for some interesting strategy (especially if the enemy could see, but not destroy, the sensors).
topgun505, on 23 July 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:
2. Your computer can't possibly know the tonnage of what it is detecting. So ... How do you tell if that thud you felt was a 20 ton mech about 50m away vs a 100 ton mech 300m away? You can't know. As a result you CANT know the exact position of the impact. You can only know the DIRECTION it is from you. Bottom line. Detected targets should not show their exact position on the map ... You should get a bearing line going from your location out in the direction to the target(s).
A computer cant "know" but it can make a damn good guess. The vibration profiles of various mechs moving at various speeds could easily be saved in the system and matched to the signal. The do this now with sonar, so the system could easily tell you what mech it is. Distance is easy enough, two sensors spaced apart (maybe 4 for a mech) will be able to triangulate the signal and give a range. So no tech reason not to.
#7
Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:31 PM
Theronlas, on 23 July 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:
Make the seismic module a X charge drop that puts a sensor on the ground that relays the data, but to all mechs. Gives a good job for scouts (drop sensors at chokepoints etc.). Have ECM jam transmissions from each sensor if they are inside 180m (so you would see something coming but then the signal would drop off). Would make for some interesting strategy (especially if the enemy could see, but not destroy, the sensors).
This would be a good solution, make it a limited-use-per-match deployable. (Destroyable maybe?) Another solution would be to reduce the range and require BAP to be mounted for it to work. One of the biggest problems with Seismic at the moment is that it is, in effect, free. You do not have to compromise your build at all, or spend any crits or tonnage to use it. Advantage should come at a cost (that is, a cost relative to the match, not a gating cost). Actually, you could happily do both. A Seismic BAP upgrade (it does what BAP should anyway, let's face it) and a deployable Seismic Sensor Drone that sits there relaying info to any team-mate within a set radius. Also, deployable Thumpers to fool both. And allow ECM to disrupt Seismic readings on nearby mechs (I think it actually already does this with the 'signal lost' text thing).
Theronlas, on 23 July 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:
A computer cant "know" but it can make a damn good guess. The vibration profiles of various mechs moving at various speeds could easily be saved in the system and matched to the signal. The do this now with sonar, so the system could easily tell you what mech it is. Distance is easy enough, two sensors spaced apart (maybe 4 for a mech) will be able to triangulate the signal and give a range. So no tech reason not to.
Except 270m lasers. If it works better for the game for the setting to be so mechanically inept that they can't do that, then they can't do that. It'd hardly immersion breaking when, well, 270m lasers.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users