61 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

Rovertoo, on 23 July 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

If explosions really only happened when the safeties were off, then maybe we could have the bright, spectacular, dangerous explosions only if you cored a mech that had it's override on? That would be pretty rare, and also extremely satisfying!

Abusable. About to go down? Override and charge in alpha-ing wildly to take anyone you can with you. Brawling doesn't need more punishing.

[Hexenhammer]

Give reactors a 1, 2 or 3% of blowing up. If mechs pop off too often lower it till we don't see it it once or twice a week if we're lucky.

[Team Leader]

I say we could use so,e sweet ammo explosions. Right now it just goes "clang clang clang clang pop"
BORING
how about some actual BOOM and KAPOW ?

[Tesunie]

Hexenhammer, on 23 July 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Give reactors a 1, 2 or 3% of blowing up. If mechs pop off too often lower it till we don't see it it once or twice a week if we're lucky.

Though I agree with this if it was to be added in, I would have to ask, is it worth their time and effort (right now with other projects in the works), to place in an effect that, honestly, wont make any impact into the game and be so rarely seen as to be just about non-existent? Wouldn't it be better, and easier, to just not include it for programing and code sake?

[Rovertoo]

Gaan Cathal, on 23 July 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

Abusable. About to go down? Override and charge in alpha-ing wildly to take anyone you can with you. Brawling doesn't need more punishing.

Well, I don't think it'd be too abusable. Override is a very dangerous tool, even if you think you are about to die horribly. Though, isn't intentionally blowing yourself into the sky part of the abilities of the explosion, as someone noted earlier? Not to mention, the explosion is more for the 'feel' of a crazy awesome/dangerous explosion than an actual gameplay change. The explosion size/damage etc. can always be changed.

Anyways, I'd like to see the explosions added, even if they don't do anything more than just add epicness to the battles.

[TehSBGX]

Physics or not, I wouldn't mind if there was some more fire bursting from a mechs chest. Not one of those "imma take you with me" explosions from MechAssault, but just some more fire.

[Hexenhammer]

Tesunie, on 23 July 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Though I agree with this if it was to be added in, I would have to ask, is it worth their time and effort (right now with other projects in the works), to place in an effect that, honestly, wont make any impact into the game and be so rarely seen as to be just about non-existent? Wouldn't it be better, and easier, to just not include it for programing and code sake?

Agreed. Ammo and engine explosions belong on the "nice to have" list. Netcode, HSR, hit detection, Community Warfare, and the ever mythical weapon balance.

[CeeKay Boques]

[Modo44]

Yay, physics. Back on topic, MWO is a game. It needs more assplosions to be more awesome.

[Gaan Cathal]

TehSBGX, on 23 July 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

Physics or not, I wouldn't mind if there was some more fire bursting from a mechs chest. Not one of those "imma take you with me" explosions from MechAssault, but just some more fire.

A largely graphical fireball when (or better, about 10% of the time) an engine kill happens, and better ammo fireworks would be nice (and not against physics or lore before anyone starts). What we want to avoid is player-damaging nuclear explosions whenever anyone gets killed.

[blinkin]

Gaan Cathal, on 23 July 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Ironically enough, those abstract safety measures are largely unnecessary. The physics behind Fusion reactors simply doesn't allow for meltdown. It's a far more delicate reaction than Fission, and without precisely controlled pressure and magnetic field containment, the plasma will simply dissipate and the reaction will cease, there's no possibility of a runaway self-sustaining reaction of the sort that causes nuclear fission reactors to go catastrophic.

explosions are also a dissipation of particles. to maintain a fusion reaction you must maintain very extreme pressures and temperatures into millions of degrees. heat a cup of water to 1 million degrees and see how much it wants to expand. if the containment fails then of course the reaction will halt immediately after, but the energy and pressures that are suddenly being released would easily equal a several kiloton explosion. all of the energy is already there in the extremely densely packed ball of energetic particles.

on a side note fission reactors have never had a full nuclear explosion. the explosions come from fluids and gasses becoming superheated and rapidly expanding causing large scale pressure explosions. if there ever were a full on nuclear explosion it would set off all the nuclear material inside or near the building and nothing would remain besides a crater for several miles.

you do earn cool points for at least doing some basic research on this stuff. i am not a physics professor and i do not have any special training or experience with any of this stuff, BUT i am sitting at a computer. my knowledge comes from worship at the altar of the all knowing google. i ask it questions and it leads me to the answers i seek (it created the youtubes to show us our flaws). there is absolutely no excuse for coming into a forum debate without at least a basic knowledge of the subject, that whole rant i posted came from about 10 minutes of online research.

Modo44, on 23 July 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

Yay, physics. Back on topic, MWO is a game. It needs more assplosions to be more awesome.

honest and pure. i like it.

[Gaan Cathal]

blinkin, on 23 July 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

explosions are also a dissipation of particles. to maintain a fusion reaction you must maintain very extreme pressures and temperatures into millions of degrees. heat a cup of water to 1 million degrees and see how much it wants to expand. if the containment fails then of course the reaction will halt immediately after, but the energy and pressures that are suddenly being released would easily equal a several kiloton explosion. all of the energy is already there in the extremely densely packed ball of energetic particles.

on a side note fission reactors have never had a full nuclear explosion. the explosions come from fluids and gasses becoming superheated and rapidly expanding causing large scale pressure explosions. if there ever were a full on nuclear explosion it would set off all the nuclear material inside or near the building and nothing would remain besides a crater for several miles.

you do earn cool points for at least doing some basic research on this stuff. i am not a physics professor and i do not have any special training or experience with any of this stuff, BUT i am sitting at a computer. my knowledge comes from worship at the altar of the all knowing google. i ask it questions and it leads me to the answers i seek (it created the youtubes to show us our flaws). there is absolutely no excuse for coming into a forum debate without at least a basic knowledge of the subject, that whole rant i posted came from about 10 minutes of online research.

Hopefully this isn't getting too off topic, but the dialogue is interesting.

Firstly, credentials wise - I am not a Nuclear Fusion physicist. I do however work in the surprisingly related field of medical radiation physics, so my training/education has a fair amount of the core principles in it (same as Cellular Biologist needs to learn about gross metabolism despite it being largely irrelevant to their sub-field). So take that for what you will regarding the following:

The actual density of fusion fuel is surprisingly low considering the physical container volume ( a few grams of fuel within ~1k m³ in current reactor models), compression is achieved in a localised space within that volume by magnetic fields - an explosion of said particles would be highly dissipated by the time it reached the vessel walls (of course, the vessels in a Battlemech-sized fusion reactor would be rather a lot smaller than that, but one assumes a rather lower fuel requirement due to the likely lower power draw of a Battlemech compared with, say, a national energy grid). A vessel rupture would likely not produce that significant an explosion due to expanding fuel plasma compared with...

Magnetic containment explosion. I.e. a: magnet explosion and/or b: uncontrolled quench. The former occurs when gas is blocked from release and the cryostat chamber explodes under the internal pressure, and the magnetic apparatus explodes with it. A quench is a release of the cryogens, whereupon they violently convert from liquid to gas.

In the case of critical damage to a Battlemech's fusion reactor, the few grams of fusion fuel evacuating a punctured plasma vessel (presuming the vessel was punctured) would be, it is true, explosive. But you're likely to see more spectacular visual effects from:

a: Lithium fire from the cooling apparatus
b: Magnet explosion
c: Uncontrolled quench

http://www.youtube.c...e&v=JA7hzSBjM-Y

^ that is a controlled quench of an NMR machine's magnets the uncontrolled version on magnets sufficient for a Tokamak-style fusion reactor would be rather more spectacular, I imagine.

So yeah. We have handy explanations for flashy fireball explosions, white gas explosions and combinations of the two, as alternatives to just keeling over dead (although it'd be nice if that still happened at least some of the time). What we don't have/want is KA-NUKE style mushroom clouds that damage other players.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 23 July 2013 - 11:37 PM.

[blinkin]

Gaan Cathal, on 23 July 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Hopefully this isn't getting too off topic, but the dialogue is interesting.

Firstly, credentials wise - I am not a Nuclear Fusion physicist. I do however work in the surprisingly related field of medical radiation physics, so my training/education has a fair amount of the core principles in it (same as Cellular Biologist needs to learn about gross metabolism despite it being largely irrelevant to their sub-field). So take that for what you will regarding the following:

The actual density of fusion fuel is surprisingly low considering the physical container volume ( a few grams of fuel within ~1k m³ in current reactor models), compression is achieved in a localised space within that volume by magnetic fields - an explosion of said particles would be highly dissipated by the time it reached the vessel walls (of course, the vessels in a Battlemech-sized fusion reactor would be rather a lot smaller than that, but one assumes a rather lower fuel requirement due to the likely lower power draw of a Battlemech compared with, say, a national energy grid). A vessel rupture would likely not produce that significant an explosion due to expanding fuel plasma compared with...

Magnetic containment explosion. I.e. a: magnet explosion and/or b: uncontrolled quench. The former occurs when gas is blocked from release and the cryostat chamber explodes under the internal pressure, and the magnetic apparatus explodes with it. A quench is a release of the cryogens, whereupon they violently convert from liquid to gas.

In the case of critical damage to a Battlemech's fusion reactor, the few grams of fusion fuel evacuating a punctured plasma vessel (presuming the vessel was punctured) would be, it is true, explosive. But you're likely to see more spectacular visual effects from:

a: Lithium fire from the cooling apparatus
b: Magnet explosion
c: Uncontrolled quench

http://www.youtube.c...e&v=JA7hzSBjM-Y

^ that is a controlled quench of an NMR machine's magnets the uncontrolled version on magnets sufficient for a Tokamak-style fusion reactor would be rather more spectacular, I imagine.

So yeah. We have handy explanations for flashy fireball explosions, white gas explosions and combinations of the two, as alternatives to just keeling over dead (although it'd be nice if that still happened at least some of the time). What we don't have/want is KA-NUKE style mushroom clouds that damage other players.

according to what i have seen on sarna they talk about the material used in terms of kilograms. each kilogram is a little more than 2.2 pounds. this seems like enough mass to cause a substantial explosion, especially if it is being held at around 2.5 million kelvin for a consistent reaction.

i do actually want the big destructive explosions just like the ones in mechwarrior living legends, but they should be rare. they should be just common enough that people keep them in the back of their mind as they watch a mech die, and rare enough that when players see one begin to happen near them a combination of shock and horror overtakes them as they abandon all attempts to fight in favor of fleeing from the impending doom.

[Oompah]

All the physics\lore stuff is great but at the end of the day I sit down on my chair at home and play a game. Simulation or not, its still a game and I want it to be fun both graphically and tactical. Right now the tactics are kind of there and the graphics are good, but I also want it to be more flavorful when things happen within the game. Right now the fights are fun but it could be so much more immersive and really just plain cool to be able to see a core explode over a ridge and be like "Dam, dude just got cored over that ridge". Come over the top of the ridge and see the smoldering remains of his mech. Now its just like "pew pew" and it hunches over with a small "fart' of smoke and that's it.

Edited by Oompah, 24 July 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[Tesunie]

blinkin, on 23 July 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

according to what i have seen on sarna they talk about the material used in terms of kilograms. each kilogram is a little more than 2.2 pounds. this seems like enough mass to cause a substantial explosion, especially if it is being held at around 2.5 million kelvin for a consistent reaction.

i do actually want the big destructive explosions just like the ones in mechwarrior living legends, but they should be rare. they should be just common enough that people keep them in the back of their mind as they watch a mech die, and rare enough that when players see one begin to happen near them a combination of shock and horror overtakes them as they abandon all attempts to fight in favor of fleeing from the impending doom.

No offense, but you relate things into LBs. Wouldn't ounce (a measurement of mass I believe) be more equivalent? I think it's talking Kg of mass, not Kg of weight. Don't know how much of a difference this would make though. I could be completely off track in my thoughts.

[blinkin]

Tesunie, on 24 July 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

No offense, but you relate things into LBs. Wouldn't ounce (a measurement of mass I believe) be more equivalent? I think it's talking Kg of mass, not Kg of weight. Don't know how much of a difference this would make though. I could be completely off track in my thoughts.

as long as we consider things while on the surface of the earth the conversion remains mostly constant and pounds are something that most people can easily relate to. if you aren't american then i apologize because this is an issue with our stubborn determination to cling to the convoluted old english system.

[Sug]

Oompah is Michael Bay.

[Dr B00t]

shadowsedge43, on 23 July 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Killing a mech should result in an impressive light show (and corresponding sounds).

There is a major game design principle for doing so:
It is not enough that the player gets the information that he has caused/accomplished a result; The player has got to FEEL it, on a sensual level.

Moreover, different ways off killing a mech should result in different deaths:
Headshots should make for a nice explosion of glas and blood (as it is now, headshots are really anticlimatic)
Let Ammo explosions look different than reactor-kills.
And it would be nice if shooting off a leg had some optical effect, too , though I have no clue how to implement this.

i too want to FEEL this sensually (sorry couldnt resist) but those are great ideas that will be shot down by pgi because "we need to cater to ppl with crap computers"

bigger ammo explosions would be pretty sweet...also maybe some environmental "explosive barrels" type thing...like destroying gas tanks near some of the bases or pipes or something

for being on the cry3 engine im actually disappointed w/ the graphics fidelity...even on max settings

Tesunie, on 24 July 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

No offense, but you relate things into LBs. Wouldn't ounce (a measurement of mass I believe) be more equivalent? I think it's talking Kg of mass, not Kg of weight. Don't know how much of a difference this would make though. I could be completely off track in my thoughts.

actually ounces can be either volume or weight...not mass

i.e. 1 ounce of milk...or 1 ounce of gold are completely different

[Tesunie]

Dr B00t, on 24 July 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

i too want to FEEL this sensually (sorry couldnt resist) but those are great ideas that will be shot down by pgi because "we need to cater to ppl with crap computers"

bigger ammo explosions would be pretty sweet...also maybe some environmental "explosive barrels" type thing...like destroying gas tanks near some of the bases or pipes or something

for being on the cry3 engine im actually disappointed w/ the graphics fidelity...even on max settings


actually ounces can be either volume or weight...not mass

i.e. 1 ounce of milk...or 1 ounce of gold are completely different

I'd probably be one that wouldn't be able to play anymore if they bumped up the settings for the game too much higher. I can't afford a new computer. I'm sure a lot (probably most) of their player base (and monetary base) are in the same boat. I think it's a wise decision to try to keep it as low as possible so as many people can play as possible. Though, having higher end options for higher end computers would be good.

I'm being dumb. What's the Imperial measurement for mass? I'm from the US, and I only know of Kg. (Having a dense moment here.)

[Clit Beastwood]

I dunno about all the real-world conversation happening here.. but if I got to see a mushroom cloud one out of every 10 or so matches, I'd be ok with that bright flash from somewhere on the map, 1-2 closes mechs disabled/damaged/overheated... woooo buddy that'd be fun.