44 replies to this topic

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Heat scaling, streaks and LRMs are finally in a good place.

Now all that remains for this game to be considered balance is a few changes

To engines: Mediums suffer from engines that are too heavy and too slow, leaving them underpowered or too vulnerable. They need a better efficiency of speed per engine size. In addition, the minimum sinks limit needs to be removed, freeing lights from unnecessary extra heat dispersion and fluff weight. Not all mechs need 10 sinks to function.

To HSR: This is obvious. We want non-regs to be a thing of the past. I'm sure this will happen.

To MM: Weight limits and functional play tiers are necessary. The weight of any given lance should never exceed around 200 tons. In addition, players should be matched solely with other players in their Elo tier, not just against Elo even teams.This would soften the new player experience substantially, and make higher end play more enjoyable for people who don't want half their team to be worthless, half-armored and under-armed trial mechs. Trial mechs are terrible, and they are a severe detriment to any team that has them, and the numbers are usually lopsided, rather than evened out.

[One Medic Army]

It's been said several times.
Engines come free with 10 heatsinks, due to the UI and to simplify coding PGI removed the weight of non-internal heatsinks from the engine weight.
In other words, even though a 200std engine is listed at 11.5tons, it's real weight is 13.5 tons, and you are paying for those extra tons when you get the required 2 extra heatsinks.
If PGI removed the necessity to have those heatsinks, they would need to increase the weight of the engines back up, and figure out some method of coding "weight free" heatsinks, or in other words not going up to 10 sinks only saves you crit space, not tonnage.

When/if PGI implements engine crits you will be glad of the minimum 10 requirement, as your damaged engine will be heat neutral when standing still with 10 singles, and walking/firing will make you overheat and explode.

Edited by One Medic Army, 23 July 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[NextGame]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 23 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Heat scaling, streaks and LRMs are finally in a good place.

Guess you are playing a different game from what I am if you believe that heat scaling is in a good place.

[East Indy]

I play 50-tonners a lot. They're capable of engaging with heavier models but sensibly limited in competing directly. This is really only pronounced when 3-4 assaults are in the match, so tonnage limits should bring medium 'Mechs to where they belong.

[Sybreed]

mediums shouldn't viable only through engine sizes

[Yankee77]

I don't think mediums need any sort of engine buffs. Their limitations are quite reasonable as is.

The real problem is that Mediums are not meant to just be "flankers" or "fast brawlers". They're meant to be the WORKHORSES of the mech world, because they're lighter and cheaper than heavies and assaults, and can still carry good weaponry.

Amusingly, you already covered the real solution: Tonnage Limits.

You add tonnage limits, and suddenly that 60-70kph Hunchback toting an AC20 is no longer a poor substitute for a Boomjager. It's now an AC20 on legs that frees up 15 tons (compared to a Boomjager), that can be used to upgrade that Cataphract to a Stalker.

In short, with tonnage limits mediums can once again handle roles that aren't focused on speed. They can now be proper brawlers, focusing on firepower more than speed, because the tonnage saving can be put to good use elsewhere.

Remember, when tonnage is restricted, being lighter is an advantage in and of itself.

Thank you.

[One Medic Army]

Sybreed, on 23 July 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

mediums shouldn't viable only through engine sizes

Why not?
It's true with lights, and to a lesser extent for heavies as well. They're just not as under-engined stock usually.

As to the tonnage limit talk, the most unbalanced match I had over the weekend was 2lights+6 assaults vs our 3mediums, 3heavies, and 2assaults. The thing is, they only had about 15% tonnage advantage over us.
Tonnage limits actually punish mediums, since most mediums aren't nearly as effective as a good light when it comes to actually dealing damage, and the lights weigh less.

Edited by One Medic Army, 23 July 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[xDeityx]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 23 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Heat scaling, streaks and LRMs are finally in a good place.

Now all that remains for this game to be considered balance is a few changes

That's as far as I got. I don't have the energy to read through another uninformed player's own personal recommendations on fixing balance at the headless chicken level.

[Sybreed]

One Medic Army, on 23 July 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Why not?
It's true with lights, and to a lesser extent for heavies as well. They're just not as under-engined stock usually.

As to the tonnage limit talk, the most unbalanced match I had over the weekend was 2lights+6 assaults vs our 3mediums, 3heavies, and 2assaults. The thing is, they only had about 15% tonnage advantage over us.
Tonnage limits actually punish mediums, since most mediums aren't nearly as effective as a good light when it comes to actually dealing damage, and the lights weigh less.

because that's basically saying all mediums are ****** before you have the C-Bills to spare on a big engine. That would be pretty bad design. We already have the DHS 1.5M tax (which is also bad design), we don't need another one.

[One Medic Army]

Sybreed, on 23 July 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

because that's basically saying all mediums are ****** before you have the C-Bills to spare on a big engine. That would be pretty bad design. We already have the DHS 1.5M tax (which is also bad design), we don't need another one.

Blame the tabletop rules we're using, it's a direct consequence of using them without using some sort of BV analogue.

I'd like to see a global buff to accel/decel/turn rate/twist rate based on tonnage, so that the lighter you are the more maneuverable you are, even if you're the same speed as something heavier.

Right now being the same speed as a heavy in a medium just means you're the same speed with less guns and less armor.
Lights are so much faster than mediums that they can actually start avoiding damage, as well as getting around the backs of larger/slower mechs so their weapons have a larger effect.

Edited by One Medic Army, 23 July 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Sybreed]

One Medic Army, on 23 July 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Blame the tabletop rules we're using, it's a direct consequence of using them without using some sort of BV analogue.

I'd like to see a global buff to accel/decel/turn rate/twist rate based on tonnage, so that the lighter you are the more maneuverable you are, even if you're the same speed as something heavier.

Agreed, I always thought BV was needed in this game. Personally, I do fine in most mediums in their stock engines, I just try to stay close to assaults and make myself little. If I play my cards well, I can deal over 500dmg in my Centurions.

[PropagandaWar]

Sybreed, on 23 July 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

mediums shouldn't viable only through engine sizes

Mediums are viable. I play them more than any other mech class and have a better than average stat sheet. The only reason people feel mediums are unviable is because they mainly play the Heavier classes or the bugged classes. It all comes down to a matter of preference and play style in the end.

One Medic Army, on 23 July 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

As to the tonnage limit talk, the most unbalanced match I had over the weekend was 2lights+6 assaults vs our 3mediums, 3heavies, and 2assaults. The thing is, they only had about 15% tonnage advantage over us.

We had 7 assualts 1 light vs our 5 mediums 1 light and 2 heavies. Good times. Took a bunch of them out though.

[One Medic Army]

PropagandaWar, on 23 July 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Mediums are viable. I play them more than any other mech class and have a better than average stat sheet. The only reason people feel mediums are unviable is because they mainly play the Heavier classes or the bugged classes. It all comes down to a matter of preference and play style in the end.


We had 7 assualts 1 light vs our 5 mediums 1 light and 2 heavies. Good times. Took a bunch of them out though.

It probably didn't help that the enemy was all LRM boat and high alpha assaults (plus the 2 Jenner-Fs), and had DV8 guys in both lances...

Edited by One Medic Army, 23 July 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

One Medic Army, on 23 July 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

It probably didn't help that the enemy was all LRM boat and high alpha assaults (plus the 2 Jenner-Fs), and had DV8 guys in both lances...

lol medic I think I fought in that match. It was the one where I said they were a good team but their name sounded like a roller skating team. They were all happy with there Atlas kills, but were an obvious sync and outweighed us by several hundered tons.

[Unbound Inferno]

The Heat System is borked and needs reworking - weapons are not balanced around it well at all.
Streaks are not in a good place, damage is too low now. Not even worth considering until clan SSRM6 comes out.
LRMs still CT core too much on smaller launchers, and the larger launchers are crap.

[xCico]

Yep, better speed per engine would be really nice

[One Medic Army]

PropagandaWar, on 23 July 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

lol medic I think I fought in that match. It was the one where I said they were a good team but their name sounded like a roller skating team. They were all happy with there Atlas kills, but were an obvious sync and outweighed us by several hundered tons.

Different match I think, they only had us by 85tons, but it was all stalker, atlas, highlanders and a pair of Jenners vs our 3 mediums, 3 heavies, and 2 assaults.

The only kill and only assists were by the mediums though, I got one of the Jenners in my BJ1X and my friend in his trebuchet got the only assist.

Edited by One Medic Army, 23 July 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

Unbound Inferno, on 23 July 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

The Heat System is borked and needs reworking - weapons are not balanced around it well at all.
Streaks are not in a good place, damage is too low now. Not even worth considering until clan SSRM6 comes out.
LRMs still CT core too much on smaller launchers, and the larger launchers are crap.

I still don'tunderstand how the heat system is borked. I never had a problem with heat. I've overheated yeah but never had a problem with heat. 95% of my mechs carry a heat efficency of 1.3 or higher. If your running at 1.1 or lower your blowing up more because you can fire way less. Of course if your refering to the wierd alpha thing I understand. As to streaks they are low and should stay that way. They only fire two missles and once the six packs come in they will be a very brutal weapon. Most multi missle rack mechs will be doing 18 -36 points of damage per shot with a very low chance to miss.

[Joseph Mallan]

I think the bork comes with heat taking 10 seconds to vent when team #1 fire & team #2 both fire and vented heat in 10 seconds total not each. 10 seconds total for both teams to fire an vent. That is where MWO borked the system.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 July 2013 - 03:29 PM.

[Foxfire]

Two things need to be fixed with HSR:

1) The non-registered hit
2) The registered hit long after you made cover

I've seen quite a few times where I've just suddenly lost all my armor on a section long after making it past cover and without any actual hits due to #2.

The inherent flaw in HSR is that it favors those who are behind 'more' because those who are ahead in time can maneuver into a position that, to them, puts them out of the line of fire and still receive damage.