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How Did Ecm Get Where It Is?


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#1 Master Q

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:25 AM

Took a look back through some rulebooks today and I think I can explain precisely why ECM is becoming so overpowered.

It all comes down to opportunity cost.

In the rulebooks, there are 3 versions of ECM we need to look at:
  • The version on the Raven, which is dual-mode (offense/defense).
  • The more common Guardian ECM.
  • The later implemented, experimental-tech Angel ECM. (That we shouldn't see even in experimental development until after the Clan Invasion and Battle of Luthien).
Now, there are some serious flaws to how this is implemented versus MWO in cost. I will compare:
  • Original Raven ECM. Opportunity cost: 4 Critical Slots, 7 tons.
  • Guardian ECM. Opportunity cost: 1.5 tons, 2 critical slots, BUT it has highly limited capabilities compared to Raven ECM. Operates in defensive mode only.
  • Angel ECM. Level 3 tech (not supposed to be implemented in MWO yet), Opportunity cost: 2 tons, 2 critical slots. Again keep in mind this is Level 3 tech, equivalent of Clan Tech, so weight reductions make it look a bit off. A truly IS version would be 3 tons.
  • MWO ECM. Opportunity cost: 0 tons, 0 critical slots. Operates as effectively as Raven ECM, free on those chassis it comes prebuilt onto.
Can you start to see where there is an opportunity cost problem? Not only is MWO ECM "free equipment" giving an effectively 7-ton boost to the mechs that have it, it also operates as a superior version compared to the ECM most of these mechs would ever be able to slot. Small wonder that even with people burning slots and weight to try to carry counter-equipment for ECM, ECM is still broken as hell and still causing game balance issues.

ECM is free in all senses, for some reason, while those who want to carry counter-options have to pay in opportunity cost for them. It actually gets worse when you talk about trying to slot TAG lasers, since they eat up precious energy hardpoints. This fundamentally unbalances the game.

#2 Syllogy

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:27 AM

Uh...

View PostMaster Q, on 24 July 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

  • MWO ECM. Opportunity cost: 0 tons, 0 critical slots. Operates as effectively as Raven ECM, free on those chassis it comes prebuilt onto.


This is wrong. In MWO, ECM costs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 critical slots.

View PostMaster Q, on 24 July 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

  • Guardian ECM. Opportunity cost: 1.5 tons, 2 critical slots, BUT it has highly limited capabilities compared to Raven ECM. Operates in defensive mode only.


This is also wrong.

Game Rules:
Any ECM suite can be set to ECCM mode to jam enemy ECM suites. The ECM suite in this mode loses its normal functions when used this way. While in ECCM mode, any enemy ECM transmissions within range will be neutralized. If multiple units are in an area with ECM and ECCM active, calculating which system rules out becomes complicated. This is because multiple ECM suites can counter enemy ECCM transmissions. One suite in ECCM mode counters one suite in ECM mode, and renders the intersecting area void of ECM (but not void of ECCM). Two intersecting ECM suites can overpower the ECCM transmissions, and render the intersecting area present with ECM transmissions.

Edited by Syllogy, 24 July 2013 - 07:29 AM.


#3 3rdworld

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:28 AM

ecm costs 1.5 tons and 2 crits isn't free.

Ravens are just the only mech to have the equipment pre-installed. They still have to pay the weight and crits.

But I agree that TAG shouldn't use an energy hardpoint.

If anything UAV countering ECM has a much lower opportunity cost than ECM does. It only takes a module slot.

Edited by 3rdworld, 24 July 2013 - 07:30 AM.


#4 MaddMaxx

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:30 AM

View PostSyllogy, on 24 July 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Uh...

This is wrong.

This is also wrong.


Shhhh. He thinks he is on to something. :)

I traded in my ECM for AMS. Turns out, I was not actually invisible after all. :D LOL!

#5 IceSerpent

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:31 AM

View PostMaster Q, on 24 July 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

  • MWO ECM. Opportunity cost: 0 tons, 0 critical slots. Operates as effectively as Raven ECM, free on those chassis it comes prebuilt onto.


Posted Image

#6 Syllogy

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:34 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 24 July 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:


Posted Image

Posted Image



#7 Master Q

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:39 AM

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM_Suite

Do some reading you pathetic troll.

#8 Roland

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:40 AM

Why would you make a thread about ECM, seemingly without ever having used it in game... ever?

#9 3rdworld

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:42 AM

I try to take posts seriously.

but this thread went full:
Posted Image

#10 Syllogy

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:47 AM

View PostMaster Q, on 24 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM_Suite

Do some reading you pathetic troll.


Which one of us is the Troll again?

.. By the way, did you read that Sarna link?

Here are a few more for you to check out:

ECCM
Electronic Warfare Equipment
How ECM works in MWO
Angel ECM Suite
Guardian ECM Suite

Edited by Syllogy, 24 July 2013 - 07:54 AM.


#11 Master Q

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:54 AM

ECCM is not a part of the original Guardian package. There is a massive difference between the Raven ECM (which incorporates ECM) and the original, defense-only Guardian. The "ECCM" rule is an add-on for later tech, Level 3 only.
They are giving away a 7-ton piece of equipment for far less opportunity cost and it is imbalancing the game. I understand the point back when "the only way to counter ECM is by flicking a switch on another ECM mech" but it has gotten out of hand and stupid with how blindingly ineffective and crazy in opportunity cost (BAP barely has any impact, TAG lasers cost precious energy slots) the other "potential counter" options are.

Now stop trolling. You're normally better than this.

#12 Mawai

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:00 AM

ECM in MWO is a combination of Battletech pieces ... and in my opinion both overpowered and broken when initially introduced.

ECM in MWO requires the mech to equip a "Guardian ECM" suite that takes 2 crit slots and weighs 1.5 tons. This can only be equipped on select mechs ... Commando-2D, Spider-5D, Raven-3L, Cicada-3M and Atlas D-DC.

This functions similar to the Guardian ECM (http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite) in Battletech except with several balance breaking enhancements ... in particular the inability to obtain a lock with LRM/SSRM on the target unless the ECM is countered ... this is an ability usually attributed to Null signature systems and Stealth armor in Battletech (http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor ).

ECM was introduced during a time when LRMs were overpowered due to several issues with LRM tracking, damage assignment, splash damage and other effects. The cure was worse than the problem.

It then took several months before PGI reached the conclusion reached by the community in about 10 minutes of play time that TAG was not enough of a counter to ECM since you could not usually keep TAG on a moving target long enough to really be worthwhile. As a result, they added the ability of Beagle Active Probe to counter ECM. This helped a lot since now folks could equip BAP to hard counter ECM. Streak equipped light mechs were useful again vs. ECM lights. Then, PGI significantly reduced the effectiveness of streaks by properly distributing the damage the way it should have been originally (streaks had the habit of hitting front CT with irritating regularity ... even from behind). The overall effectiveness of streaks has been reduced (which is a good thing) while SRM effectiveness was increased in the last patch. Streaks probably still need a slight upward tweak.

Anyway, with the addition of better light mech targeting with host state rewind and other network improvements .. along with the addition of BAP as another hard counter to ECM ... the overall balance of ECM is much better than it was a few months ago.

... and that is how ECM got to where it is now ... :)


What ECM should have done is to prevent target sharing from one mech to another on the same team since ECM disables the C3 computer systems that are intrinsically a part of MWO, LRM/SSRM should have been required to obtain their own locks / LOS when ECM was involved. In addition, the mechs location on the mini-map would not be relayed to others on the team. I think these were the effects that PGI was trying to implement within the constraints of the Cryengine system. Whether the differences were due to specific design changes intended to improve game play or whether it was due to an unfamiliarity of the developer responsible with the previous video and board games being used as a basis for MWO isn't known (given the whole mess with the implementation of double heat sinks which seemed to clearly derive from the developer responsible being unaware of what double heat sinks were supposed to do and implementing something else ... it isn't too much of a stretch to ascribe the initial ECM implementation to a similar issue).

#13 Roland

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:01 AM

Master Q, I'm not sure you really grasp what folks are making fun of you for.

You don't seem to understand how ECM works in this game, which is effectively destroying the entirety of your argument regarding it.

#14 MaddMaxx

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:02 AM

View PostSyllogy, on 24 July 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Posted Image






:)

Posted Image

Edited by MaddMaxx, 24 July 2013 - 08:04 AM.


#15 Strum Wealh

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:02 AM

View PostSyllogy, on 24 July 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

Uh...



This is wrong. In MWO, ECM costs 1.5 tons and takes up 2 critical slots.



This is also wrong.

Game Rules:
Any ECM suite can be set to ECCM mode to jam enemy ECM suites. The ECM suite in this mode loses its normal functions when used this way. While in ECCM mode, any enemy ECM transmissions within range will be neutralized. If multiple units are in an area with ECM and ECCM active, calculating which system rules out becomes complicated. This is because multiple ECM suites can counter enemy ECCM transmissions. One suite in ECCM mode counters one suite in ECM mode, and renders the intersecting area void of ECM (but not void of ECCM). Two intersecting ECM suites can overpower the ECCM transmissions, and render the intersecting area present with ECM transmissions.

Not only that, but the 7-ton "original Raven ECM" the OP cites is actually the Electronic Warfare Equipment system, a two-fer system that combines a prototype Beagle Active Probe (identical to the normal BAP, except it only has a 90-meter range) and a prototype Guardian ECM Suite (identical to the normal GECM, except it only has a 90-meter range). Other examples of this "CEWS" (Combined/Composite Electronic Warfare System) concept include the Clan-built Watchdog System (a combination of the Clan Active Probe and Clan ECM Suite) and the Clan-built, Jihad-era Nova CEWS ( a three-way combination of the Clan Active Probe, Clan ECM Suite, and souped-up version of C3i; see here and here).

#16 PanzerMagier

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:05 AM

His presentation started great. Then he just had to swing full downsyndrome on MWO ecm.

Sigh.

#17 Master Q

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:06 AM

Essentially, MWO gives all players a C3i for free.

Ok, I get why they did it, and it made sense.

But everything else you discuss, Mawai, is spot-on EXCEPT that BAP isn't really countering ECM. At least, it's only countering ECM at stupidly short ranges (where you are basically inside the umbrella anyways).

Teams that premake and slot 6-8 ECM suites are still ridiculous; the overabundance of ECM-equipped Atlases... it gets silly fast. "Counter" one ecm, never fear, 3-4 more are still covering the group.

#18 Syllogy

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:09 AM

Direct Fire usually counters ECM Atlases quite nicely, in my opinion.

#19 Master Q

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:13 AM

And why do you think we have an issue with overuse of AC20s, and Gauss/PPC boats right now?

Congratulations on how hard you just derped.

#20 CancR

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:15 AM

I'd like to point out that Sarma has very dated rules and is poorly written. when I get the time I'll quote from the newest Tech Manual, but the short version is that MWO ECM is Gaurdian, Angel ECM, and a Stealth Suite, which combined takes up about half of Hunch's payload, and causes 10 heat when active.





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